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Author Topic: not getting paid for saw timber  (Read 1754 times)

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Offline lockhornes

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not getting paid for saw timber
« on: January 09, 2019, 08:33:53 PM »
Had a forester come out to buy timber from me. He said it would be best not to do lump sell but to do it from the ticket weight of the loads that are cut. It would be fair to me an to him. I had a good bit of Saw timber and Chip n saw. When I got to looking at the loads weight for the loads all of them showed Chip n saw no Saw timber loads. I call the forester and he agreed there should have been saw timber on some of the tickets. When he contacted the mill about it they would no correct the mistake. It hurts when you grow your timber to Saw timber and only get paid for chip n saw. Which is about half the price of saw timber. Not sure what my next move could be any help would be appreciated. :'(

Offline Texas Ranger

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Re: not getting paid for saw timber
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2019, 08:41:28 PM »
Contract?
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Offline lockhornes

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Re: not getting paid for saw timber
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2019, 05:10:16 AM »
Yes but because of the amount can only go to small claim court with the timber company that I have the contract with. 

Offline petefrom bearswamp

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Re: not getting paid for saw timber
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2019, 09:03:01 AM »
So do it if it your only recourse.
In my 25 yrs experience, competitive bid, lump sum up front is the way to go.
I exclusively bid my timber and have as good a contract as is available.
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Offline Ron Scott

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Re: not getting paid for saw timber
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2019, 04:11:13 PM »
Did your contract with the Buyer say that you were selling sawtimber as a separate product and at what price/species as well as chip and saw wood? Did the forester prepare the contract and was he working for you or the sawmill? You may need to have an attorney sort this out if the forester doesn't.
~Ron

Offline Woodpecker52

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Re: not getting paid for saw timber
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2019, 12:04:25 AM »
Id say it is attorney time.
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Offline barbender

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Re: not getting paid for saw timber
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2019, 10:56:24 AM »
Your forester should've been on top of this already. I'd have an attorney, and I'd be looking at going after the logger, and maybe the forester if he didn't fulfill his contractual obligations that you paid him for.
Too many irons in the fire

Offline Southside

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Re: not getting paid for saw timber
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2019, 11:20:45 AM »
First question is who does the forester work for?  If he works for the mill then that explains quite a bit, and might give you a much stronger position in a court case.  
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Offline barbender

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Re: not getting paid for saw timber
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2019, 01:00:41 PM »
Right, Southside. He state the forester bought the timber from him, I smell a rat I think.
Too many irons in the fire

Offline moodnacreek

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Re: not getting paid for saw timber
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2019, 08:16:33 PM »
Some of the foresters are as bad as the bad loggers but you ain't heard it from me.

Offline barbender

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Re: not getting paid for saw timber
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2019, 10:01:26 PM »
Anytime there is money to be swindled it brings the thieves out in any profession.
Too many irons in the fire

Offline lockhornes

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Re: not getting paid for saw timber
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2019, 03:48:47 PM »
The forester does not work for the saw mill but for a independent timber company. I have the Georgia Forestry commission starting a investigation in to what happen. I hope Saw mill will do the right thing and pay for what they bought.

Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: not getting paid for saw timber
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2019, 05:24:09 AM »
Did the forester do an actual cruise?  How was timber designated for harvest?  When I marked timber, I had a tally of how much sawtimber and how much pulp was on a sale.  It didn't matter if I was a consultant or a procurement forester.  Even if I was doing a cruise estimate without marking, I would have an estimate of the volumes in size classes. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Offline lockhornes

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Re: not getting paid for saw timber
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2019, 05:39:50 AM »
The sell was based off the load tickets. The contract outline the price for pulp CNS and Saw timber.  

Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: not getting paid for saw timber
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2019, 09:22:21 AM »
I understand how the sale was handled.  Generally speaking, a forester will have some idea of how much timber is on a sale, whether they're the buyer or seller.  They do that by either taking samples of volumes or by an actual count and scale of timber.  Did he even offer a lump sum bid?  If he did, then he had an idea of how much timber was there, and in what categories.

Your alternative may be to have another forester come in and give a volume estimate based on reconstructing the stand from the stumps.  It can be an expensive project, depending on the size of the area involved.  I've done these several times on trespass cases.  This sounds to be a violation of the contract.  There should be some remedy in the contract.  My contracts always had something in it about an arbitration board.  I had it as either a procurement forester or a consulting forester.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Offline timberking

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Re: not getting paid for saw timber
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2019, 03:29:07 PM »
Man I hate to hear this stuff.  We have bad apples here too.  Timber buyers that call themselves foresters.  I do a lot of pay as cuts because it is fair to both parties.  I also bring up that some trust with a good contract to back it up is needed.  Always have a load sheet.  I suggest landowners put up cameras or have a neighbor watch and count loads.  If they are not comfortable we do something else.  There is a place for these kind of contracts.  Doing a first thin pine plantation, operator select to reach a BA.

Offline Ron Scott

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Re: not getting paid for saw timber
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2019, 04:45:18 PM »
What Ron W. said. 

Your forester should have a pretty good estimate of the sawlog and pulpwood volumes to be removed by species. The Buyer (mill) should be paying for the products by the dollar amount as specified in the Timber Harvest Contract.

How was your forester paid?

Offline moodnacreek

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Re: not getting paid for saw timber
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2019, 07:37:37 PM »
'Have a neighbor watch'   People around here are not that smart anymore. If they lived by the old rules there would be a lot less trouble. I have given land owners hell for bringing in the bad guy to cut there wood. They tell me they got paid no problem. What do you think happened? You guessed it, the 'logger stole the neighbors walnut. Happens all the time.

Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: not getting paid for saw timber
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2019, 05:30:36 AM »
My nephew had some trees cut on his property.  Never bothered to call me.   He said the logger treated him real fair.  60% on veneer, 40% on #2 logs.  I asked him about the #3 logs, and he said the logger just took them.  The logger didn't want to take the tulip poplar.  Seemed like pretty steep logging costs.

When I was buying timber as a procurement forester, I had to come up with a ballpark figure before I splashed any paint.  That involved a walk through, and a guesstimate of the volume per acre, and the quality.  After the landowner agrees to having the timber marked, I would mark the timber and cruise the timber.  On the contract I had the number of trees to be cut and how they were designated.  It was always a lump sum contract and payment was before any cutting began.  In my area, most mills and loggers work this type of a system.   

As a consultant, I worked the system the same way.  The cruise was sent out to prospective buyers.  They would bid on it, so I wasn't setting the price.  Contract was about the same.

Going on a logger honor system always sounds good.  I've always heard that the logger will tell them they'll get more money.  But, that just means that the landowner takes way more risk.  Sometimes those veneer logs don't turn out to be veneer.  Sometimes those scale sheets get lost.  If you need neighbors to keep an eye on things, it probably isn't the best deal.  The system only works if the logger gives a guarantee on a minimum value and the landowner finds that to be acceptable.  Also better if there is a payment in advance.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Offline Meadows Miller

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Re: not getting paid for saw timber
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2019, 12:19:23 AM »
G'day 

I hope there is a rectification in your favour with this matter , Sadly it happens all over the world and as a logger & sawmiller it upsets me to hear of forest owners being shorted on royalties/stumpage . As it deters people from investing in commercial forestry 

I have suggested this to people who have questioned if they are being ripped off . You should setup multiple trail cams to track each load from different angles front and rear and elevated position it is pretty easy to establish volume or rate discrepancies .

Regards Chris 
4TH Generation Timbergetter


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