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Author Topic: Feel Iíve made a mistake  (Read 810 times)

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Offline wbrent

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Feel Iíve made a mistake
« on: January 12, 2019, 07:42:44 AM »
Iíve been trying for for years to have someone cut wood on my land. 7 years ago I had Someone from our province of New Brunswick come and do up a wood lot management plan for the property. I was totally impressed with the plan and wanted to proceed. Years passed and I couldnít seem to get anyone from the province to move on it so I gave up and figured Iíd manage it in my own since I had the plan. I reached out to a friend who was in the business. He was too busy but passed my name on to his friend who came and cruised the property and said heíd like the job. I gave him the plan and said I wanted to follow it as best we can. So thatís the background. I need to tell you all that I am pretty meek and mild by nature. Donít like conflict,etc.
So this guy showed up a week and a half ago with a harvester and a huge 8 wheeled porter and proceeded to strip our forest. My wife and I are devastated. This is our greatest joy in life. Walking the family and dogs through the woods. We werenít doing this for the money. We just wanted to be good responsible land owners. We want this land to be enjoyed by our family for years to come. I donít blame this guy at all. He seems like a good guy. But Iíve called a meeting to get an update so he can show me how he is following the plan. But Iím new to all this. What specifically do I need to ask him. I know there are areas on the plan that called for thinning only. How can you thin with this harvester?  Itís like a transformer!
Here is what he offered btw.
23$ logs
21$ studs
5$ pulp
8$ birch
8$ popular
25$ per cord of hardwood.
But like I said. Itís not about the money. Hope you all can give me some advice in a hurry. Meeting soon.

Offline petefrom bearswamp

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Re: Feel Iíve made a mistake
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2019, 09:51:38 AM »
Yup you made a bad mistake.
Dont know how you can solve it.
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Offline doc henderson

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Re: Feel Iíve made a mistake
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2019, 10:14:18 AM »
Wbrent sorry to hear about your experience.

Offline Southside logger

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Re: Feel Iíve made a mistake
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2019, 10:16:30 AM »
Do you have a written contract with the harvester?  Do you have access to a  forester who could come in, read your plan, evaluate what has been harvested so far and give an opinion as to what has been done compared to what is planned?  

Not defending or accusing anyone here since we don't have any details but I will say that at some parts during a harvest things can look ugly before clean up has been done.  No decent logger will have a problem walking you through the harvest and explaining what he is doing.  

Good luck and keep us posted on how things go. 
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Offline Shotgun

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Re: Feel Iíve made a mistake
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2019, 11:41:14 AM »
How many acres are involved?
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Offline BuckeyeAaron

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Re: Feel Iíve made a mistake
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2019, 04:00:43 PM »
Like others have said, what did the contract say (or not say)?  Ultimately that's all that matters.  Unfortunately it has become all too common for terms and expectations to be discussed with seemingly everyone on the same page but then that doesn't translate to actual intentions and actions in the woods.  I don't want to rush to place blame on the logger because it's also possible he misunderstood your desired outcome because it was poorly conveyed.  

Involving a Consulting Forester at this point is a bit of "too little too late" but he or she could look at the plan and tell you where it was implemented or ignored.  Similarly they could update the plan to address what went wrong and set prescriptions to restore it though there will be no quick fix.  Finally, if there was some violation of the contract (assuming there was one), the Forester may be able to assist with determining restitution value/avenues if legal recourse is needed.
If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. 

Psalms 139, 9-10.

Offline Ron Scott

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Re: Feel Iíve made a mistake
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2019, 04:24:19 PM »
A little "after the fact", but is the forester who did the management plan available to review the situation and determine if your plan is being implemented properly? If not, contact a local consulting forester serving your local area to review the situation and determine if good "forest management practices" are being implemented.
~Ron

Offline thecfarm

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Re: Feel Iíve made a mistake
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2019, 06:29:24 PM »
It's hard to cut wood without a "mess".
I had my land cut 3 times so far. I am very,very fussy when I cut on my land.  But I can take the time to do it. I get all the money. I haul rocks into wet holes,cut any brush into lenghts not much longer than 2 feet. Run my saw up and down the limbs.
My cutting looks A LOT diffeant than how the loggers do it. Not saying anything bad.
Did you look at any lots that have been cut first?
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Online Logger RK

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Re: Feel Iíve made a mistake
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2019, 08:55:07 PM »
I am wondering if your contract stated what method of logging was to be done. Sounds like it was cut to length. And for a neater job it should have been whole tree. Iv cut private land for years with the whole tree method. CTL would be a hard sell to private landowners for me.

Offline Southside logger

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Re: Feel Iíve made a mistake
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2019, 09:43:36 PM »
Logger RK - not to get off topic but I think that is really subjective.  Yes, a guy with a 440 JD will have a narrower skid path than a big 6 wheel forwarder, but he will likely rub more trees skidding, and then have to remove them, also more likely to damage crowns by hand felling, than a mechanical operation.  In soft ground a skidder will have more soil compaction too, I think a lot comes down to how a guy wants to leave the job looking.  CTL does have a higher operating cost so right or wrong production / cash flow comes into decision making a lot of times.   
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Offline snowstorm

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Re: Feel Iíve made a mistake
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2019, 09:12:04 AM »
from what i have seen in nb if its mature sp fir often times its clear cut. just because that fir is only 4" dosent mean it isnt 70 yrs old. none of us have seen it so without lots of pictures its pretty hard to tell

Offline Jeff

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Re: Feel Iíve made a mistake
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2019, 09:42:11 AM »
Hopefully this gentleman shows back up to acknowledge the input.
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Offline wbrent

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Re: Feel Iíve made a mistake
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2019, 01:51:44 PM »
Just a quick update. I went for a walk with the MAin operator yesterday. Ran out of time so we will walk more wednesday. So a few things he explained to me. The area he started in was the area most in need of harvesting. So it is the area that will look the worst (clearest). From there on he claims it wont look as bad. He said even though he took a lot of small looking stuff, he took it because it was done growing or starting to die. He determined this by looking at the "Leader" If there wasnt one he claims it is done growing. If left it will blow down now that everything around it has been cut.  Regardless it is done growing. Also he cut anything regardless of size if it was covered in green moss. Again he claims these trees are dying and will soon be worthless. He was able to clearly show me many examples of that. He did admit that one of his workers may have been a little aggressive in an area or two and will be sure to speak to him. In the end he said he would do or cut whatever I wanted. Otherwise he would use his discretion as to what he thinks should be cut. 
So we are going for another walk in the next two days to outline what I want cut in the next two sections of the property. We may have to do more frequent walks to make sure we are on the same page. Also I am leaving a few small areas that are hands off. These will be my play areas.

What do I need to consider? What do I need to ask?  He figures hes cut about 8 acres so far. The property is probably close to 100. So its not too late to make right. 

Offline BuckeyeAaron

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Re: Feel Iíve made a mistake
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2019, 03:03:37 PM »
Reading that I see a lot of red flags, in my opinion.  Green moss on trees causing death?  It's entirely possible those trees were dead and/or dying but the moss certainly didn't cause it. It reminds me of guys around here telling landowners to cut all of their walnut due to thousand cankers disease.  It's a scare tactic based on poor understanding on their part or just purposefully taking advantage of landowner ignorance.

As asked before, what's in the contract?  Doesn't matter if he's cut 8 acres or 90 but there is little you can do if the contract grants him rights to all of the timber.

It sounds as if you are looking to your harvester or folks on this forum to provide a silvicultural opinion based on your management plan compared to the harvest as it has been implemted thus far.  Frankly there's no effective way for anyone to do that on here.  And I mean no disrespect to your harvester but he is not a forester (at least from what I gather); it's two totally different skill sets.  You need a consulting forester or a government forester (if allowed in your location) involved in this project and sadly it seems like that opportunity has passed.
If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. 

Psalms 139, 9-10.

Offline Jeff

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Re: Feel I’ve made a mistake
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2019, 03:34:13 PM »
I see a lot of flags as well. especially the moss remark. if that is the case, many of my trees, as well as my house and cabin out back, our rocks in the gardens and stone wall are all DOOMED!

This guy you are calling a Forester. Are you calling him a Forester for any other reason than he calls himself one?

On the other side of things, keep in mind that a timber harvest is rarely a pretty thing when in process. Kinda like a colonoscopy. :D
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Offline wbrent

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Re: Feel Iíve made a mistake
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2019, 04:47:05 PM »
Donít believe Iíve called anyone a forester.
I had a forester who works for the province do up the management plan. But he is the one that went AWOL for the last seven years. I donít know what you call the guy doing the work. A harvester?  Lumberjack?  Whatever. Doesnít matter. He cuts wood for a living.
We have no contract other than a hand shake. Actually I donít think we have that even. I could run out right now and ask him to stop if need be.
The management plan is back in my possession and I will study it more.
As for the mossy trees and whatís been cut so far I will try to take and post some pictures. Not very good with computers so may take me a while. All for now.

Offline BuckeyeAaron

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Re: Feel Iíve made a mistake
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2019, 07:41:03 PM »
If there is no contract then I would re-evaluate your approach to this process.  You have a management plan in hand and you're doing your best to follow it with the help of a logger.  While the logger may be excellent at his job, he may not be excellent at implementing your management plan.  I think it would be very beneficial to put the cut on hold to at least invite a consulting forester out to inspect the property, see what has been done, and determine if it is the best way forward.  If your forester determines that a sale is warranted I would allow him or her to handle the harvest.  That could put you in an uncomfortable position with the logger but harvesting is something many people may only do once in their lives. It's important to do it right.  I think you'll find more success this route rather than trying to manage it on your own.  Either way you proceed I hope you're able to find a successful outcome.
If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. 

Psalms 139, 9-10.

Offline Ianab

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Re: Feel Iíve made a mistake
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2019, 09:57:05 PM »
Re the mossy trees, the logger may not be correct in his explanation, in that moss shouldn't kill a tree. Heck we would NONE left here if that was the case. 

But what it does suggest is that the smaller moss covered trees are quite old, and have been suppressed and stunted by lack of light. Leaving them and hoping they grow is usually futile, as they have been suppressed for decades, and never really recover, or may even die when exposed to the full elements again. In that case it's usually better to remove them, and let something (hopefully better) grow in the open space left behind. 

So slightly wrong reasoning, but same end result, and removing those trees is possibly a good idea. 

A "Clear cut" isn't always a bad thing, if it's done for the right reasons, and just in the areas that would benefit from it. Looks like a bomb site at first, but give it a few years and all sorts of fresh regeneration starts coming up through the brush piles that were left behind.  
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Re: Feel Iíve made a mistake
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2019, 06:11:40 AM »
I was comparing the 2 different logging methods. CTL leaves all the tops,branches & under size wood scattered where it's cut. Whole tree removes that product & is chipped. We do leave a few piles around a site for wild life. But around my area most private land owners like the whole tree method. Also most Aspen stands are better to be clear cut. You get a better uniform regrowth. And the Aspen chips are made in it to pellets for cow bedding & floor dry & even kitty litter. And the mixed wood under size  chips are biomass for a electrical plant.

Offline snowstorm

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Re: Feel Iíve made a mistake
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2019, 06:31:46 AM »
this being northern sp fir on the east coast its more than likely even aged wood. so it was all cut at one time or a field. count the rings on a 5" stump then a 12" close in age? any red heart? if its already 50   60 yrs old its not going to get bigger better by thinning around it. and then there is wind throw. dosent take much to blow down sp fir. is he cutting it the way it should could be without seeing it or pictures no way of telling


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