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Author Topic: 3304 cat  (Read 1535 times)

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Offline coxy

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3304 cat
« on: January 16, 2019, 07:11:16 PM »
going to try to explain this typing  ??? in the morning when I start the skidder it will run about 45min at idle while cutting up the skid after I un hook and move about 50 ft at hi/low throttle the temp gage will go high in the green never in the red but high green and antifreeze will push out the over flow this is only for 1-2min then the temp gage will drop fast down in the white where it normally runs this time of year ill quick check the radiator it will look really really low then all of a sudden the level will come back up and it only takes a half gal you can run it all day it will never leave the white /green line in the gauge like normal but every now and then it will dump antifreeze out of the over flow through out the day this is the second day its done it the motor has never been hot and the gage is in the middle green in hot summer pulling no antifreeze in oil and smoke stack is dry no moisture in blow by tube im stumped could the thermostat be sticking a little or could the cap be bad  the thing thats got me is where the antifreeze is going to drain the rad that far then comes back to normal level  if anyone has an idea what it maybe and need it explained better (I stink at trying to type what im thinking)  pm me and ill give you phone number  thanks paul 

Offline Haleiwa

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Re: 3304 cat
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2019, 08:07:59 PM »
Start with a new thermostat and a new fan belt.  A slightly worn belt will slip until it's warm and then hold.  Letting it go too long will wear the sheave.  Those are the easy things to try.  Next on the list would be new radiator hoses in case one is collapsing.  After that you get to the more expensive stuff.
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Offline HuZzEy

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Re: 3304 cat
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2019, 08:39:33 PM »
Easy way to check for a head gasket is get a exhaust gas leak detector kit. You put the tube in the radiator fill neck and the fluid will change color if there is   

Offline mike_belben

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Re: 3304 cat
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2019, 09:29:07 PM »
Im leaning head gasket too.  

Compression blows into the water jacket and the cap vent burps the pressure and antifreeze into overflow.  When it cools the overflow pulls it back in through a 2 way cap?  Or maybe its going to a heater core or degas tank or something, trapped by air pressure?  

My blown head gaskets havent caused overheating until too much coolant blew out.   Put your vent hose into a clear jug or plastic bottle ziptied where you can see it easy.  Youll find out quick how much is coming out.  More boost = more leak.

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Offline coxy

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Re: 3304 cat
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2019, 09:46:59 PM »
it will only will lose a 1/2 gal all day and most of my pulling Is up hill so its to the floor board 90%of the day and it only blows it out every now and then while working most of it is first thing in the morning its strange  on day worked fine the next well not so good  mike there is no heater core it has AC/heat year round  ;D the over flow tube goes to nothing but the belly pan when its hooked up 99%of the time its just the nipple off the tank thats how I knew what it was doing 

Offline coxy

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Re: 3304 cat
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2019, 09:51:20 PM »
if its the head gasket and you took the cap off and had someone hold it to the floor it should put a  fast motion of  moving water through the radiator more than just regular movement no 

Offline GRANITEstateMP

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Re: 3304 cat
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2019, 10:51:13 PM »
coxy,

 We run a couple late 70's CAT930 wheel loaders that have 3304 motors .  One of them got a water pump not too long ago.  It did some wonky things before it was replaced.  I remember it wasn't cheap, was heavy, had a high price for the core, AND, didn't want to come off! Pretty sure he got it through CAT in there "classic" parts line.  I'll ask him more in the am.
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Offline Bandmill Bandit

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Re: 3304 cat
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2019, 11:17:26 PM »
There was a few of those engines that had some machining flaws in the block that caused the top lip seating ring to crack vertically right next to the sleeve , part way around the top of the sleeve. 

The crack was such that the head gasket would mitigate much of the abuse except under heavy load. Turboed engines presented the problem much earlier.

The problem was that the lip that the sleeve was supposed to seat on was not machined correctly in that it was not a perfect 90 Degree angle so that the suspension lip was only resting on the very inner 20 thou (right against the sleeve wall) or so of the lip instead of the full surface of the lip causing the sleeve to sit a few thou too high and there by the stress to the sleeve as soon as the heads were torqued and hence the cracking. I've seen blocks where only one hole was affected and some where all 6 had the problem. I don't remember which foundry the problem came out of but it affected Case 504, Cat 3304/6 and IH 466 and I think some Cummins all prior to 74 that I am aware of. I am pretty sure it was limited to 1969 through 1974 models but I am not 100 percent sure. Thats a lot of years ago. 

The fix is a trip to the machine shop for the block to have the seats trued up. Rare cases required a new block but as a rule the finishing in that seat was such that there was too much material left so the correction is removal of excess material to get to spec. The worst part is the block needs to be stripped to get to the Machine Shop.

I do know one machinist that rigged up a magnetic milling drill press and a cutter to do the job in frame and I sent a few farmers his way with good success.
            
     
If you ain't livin on the edge you are takin up way to much room. Of course at my age if I get too close to that edge any more theres a good chance I may fall off.
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Offline tacks Y

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Re: 3304 cat
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2019, 08:13:44 AM »
I would remove rad cap when cold and start. Watch for bubbles so have it full, if gasket or sleeves leaking you should see bubbles.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: 3304 cat
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2019, 02:34:23 PM »
I have never seen bubbles in the radiator juice.  The top of it and the high point of the hoses is full of air so theyve come out by the time u see fluid under the cap.  


If you run that cap overflow line to a bucket and ride next to it youll learn a whole lot about when pressure is escaping.  I limped like 400 miles spewing into a 5 gal pail on the floor one time. Drove another truck from SC to mass with a cracked head.  Lotta stops!


If your radiator was half full, a fully blown HG wouldnt spit out any coolant, just combustion gas.   And youd see that very clearly if the vent hose was next to you submerged in a bucket.  Its a very good diagnostic tool.  

Ive never heard about the bad block registers before, good info.  Im surprised one plant was making navistar, cat and case.  Small world i guess.

Revelation 3:20

Offline coxy

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Re: 3304 cat
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2019, 07:25:01 PM »
going to put thermostat in tomarrow if that dont work I friend has the die to do the test but cant remember what color it changes to with a diesel anyone know thanks ill let everyone know what it was oh one more thing does the older 3304 eng heads with the combustion chambered injectors have to be shimmed for cylinder (protrusion) I think that right lol again thanks for the info you guy are great at giving people bad news  :D :D :D :D
 

Offline mike_belben

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Re: 3304 cat
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2019, 07:26:32 PM »
Well theres good news.. Itll run like an ape when you fix it!
Revelation 3:20

Offline coxy

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Re: 3304 cat
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2019, 07:58:15 PM »
mike does the head need to be shimmed 

Offline snowstorm

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Re: 3304 cat
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2019, 08:10:39 PM »
mike does the head need to be shimmed
your talking about pre combustion chambers? it has glow plugs? only did 1 of those motors dont recall shiming them. the block tester seems like its blue . i could go out in the garage and look be its cold out an i dont wanta. it will say on it. if its not the color it should be dont use it. buy new

Offline bushmechanic

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Re: 3304 cat
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2019, 09:11:18 PM »
Most all cooling systems without an overflow if filled to the top will blow out excessive A/F until a happy medium is reached. It sure sounds like a sticky thermostat is why it goes up high and then drops down quick, when the thermostat opens you get all that cold A/F from the radiator to the block in a hurry. If you suspect a bad head gasket and compression is pushing the coolant out take the belt off the water pump and disconnect the rad hose on top of the thermostat housing and start her up. If you have a bad head gasket there will be air bubbles rising to the top and blowing out, with the water pump not circulating it should be still water if everything is ok. 

Offline mike_belben

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Re: 3304 cat
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2019, 09:57:27 PM »
In my experience most old head gaskets will not show you any sign at idle.  Cant really run power into a load if the hood is open.  Hence driving with a bucket.  Above 10psi boost id start seeing vapor.  At 30 psi shes spewing.  Let off and coast, all looks good.  And i have never actually had a headgasket mix fluids that i can recall.  Probably done 10 of em.  

If the top hose is rock hard you got combustion pressure in the water.  A low psi cap will vent it before you notice but it does protect the radiator.  I run a 5psi now.  When i blew a 2 day old HG climbing the big hill in port jervis my fabricated aluminum degas tank exploded.  $200 of new coolant across the windshield.

Revelation 3:20

Online Skeans1

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Re: 3304 cat
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2019, 11:26:00 PM »
Cheap way to check a head gasket just check the upper radiator hose in the morning if it's hard you have a head gasket or crack some where. My bet is a thermostat or you have some air stuck trapped in the system some where.

Offline Bandmill Bandit

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Re: 3304 cat
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2019, 12:45:14 PM »
Ive never heard about the bad block registers before, good info.  Im surprised one plant was making navistar, cat and case.  Small world i guess.
Mike I had a 73, 504 in a 1370 that I bought demo/new with just over 600 hours on it in 74. Did the fall work and used in on the Mix Mill all winter and put the crop in the spring of 75 with that annoying issue. Didn't know it at the time and we tried about every fix there was with no success.

Then one day Dad was at the IH dealer (long before Case/IH merger) to get some parts for the manure spreaders and mentioned it to the owner who was also the shop foreman and a very good mechanic, we learned about the possibility of that situation.

Dad told me and since I was going to the Case dealer (where I pulled wrenches in winter) to get filters and such for the Uniloader and the 1370. I asked the shop fore man about it and he handed me a notice he had received from Case in the Monday morning mail describing that very situation and instructions to notify all owners with the serial number range affected.

IF I remember correctly it was actually traced to one of 3 machine shop sub contractors as the issue on a single milling machine with an alignment issue caused by a very minor bent spindle and not actually the foundry. Hence the effect on more than one manufacturer.

Our tractor was in the shop the next day for the tear down and repair. Our dealer had 106 units in the field that had to be done. 1370s and 2470s.

Was the John Deere dealers in house machine shop that came up with the magnetic based milling drill setup so we could do it in frame. Had to lift the cab if it was the back holes.                    
If you ain't livin on the edge you are takin up way to much room. Of course at my age if I get too close to that edge any more theres a good chance I may fall off.
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: 3304 cat
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2019, 01:03:18 PM »
Dang is that a unique piece of history!
Revelation 3:20

Offline coxy

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Re: 3304 cat
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2019, 01:34:36 PM »
so the update went with new thermostat first thing this AM before it was started after doing that started it up let it run at idle for about 1/2 hour checked the rad it looked good went in and got a close skid about 1/2 mile every thing was good then I went all the way to the top of the hill takes about 20min to get up there its steep and 1st gear all the way things still good took about another 15-20 min to cut the trees got back to (skidder it was still running) and noticed a little A/F had burped out the cap hooked up 6 trees down the hill I went at the landing it ran another 1/2-45 min while I cut them up still running things was still good pushed the logs up things still good so im hoping the thermostat was the trouble ill know more tomarrow morning after the morning start up  
 


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