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Author Topic: To cantilever or to not cantilever  (Read 1426 times)

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Offline Dave Shepard

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Re: To cantilever or to not cantilever
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2019, 12:17:45 PM »
When 4 post manufacturers point to the cantilever head as a design flaw or weak point, I stop listening.

I seem to remember that it has been pointed out by a certain manufacture  that twin rails mills flex, are hard to set up  and are hard to off bear so that argument goes both ways. Every mill flexes , my TK sets up and down fast , customers like off bearing better than the mills they used to have saw for them.  Steve
The difference is, twin rail mills do flex. The cantilever mills don't have the problems that the competition says they do. So, one company is advertising an advantage, the other is pushing their propaganda. 
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Offline Jeff

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Re: To cantilever or to not cantilever
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2019, 12:27:10 PM »
This has been covered countless times here over two decades. I can see no benefit of the back and forth happening again. Many times it ends up someone saying something that they shouldn't and then I get called in. So, I think that it would benefit the original poster of this topic to just use the forum search to find what was hashed on time and time again for this line of conversation.
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Offline wisconsitom

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Re: To cantilever or to not cantilever
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2019, 01:13:48 PM »
No worries Jeff.  As a "new guy" here, I'm learning the ropes of this forum....and do now see many past threads of similar nature.  But  think I've got it right here....and don't see any squabbling.

tom

Offline WV Sawmiller

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Re: To cantilever or to not cantilever
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2019, 05:57:21 PM »
I also like not having to walk back and forth with the carriage. My thoughts, others may think differently.
   Part of the reason I bought a mill was go get out more and get some exercise doing something I enjoyed so walking with the mill is a plus for me. There are people on this site with WM mills who choose the stationary and wireless heads and some unnamed members even have the seat and ride. :D Actually since I mostly work alone the seat option would be a negative factor for me but it works great for others. You just have to consider your reasons for buying or building a mill and what you plan to cut and buy/build accordingly. Good luck.

Howard Green
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Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once"

Offline Two Trax

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Re: To cantilever or to not cantilever
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2019, 06:21:07 PM »
I also like not having to walk back and forth with the carriage. My thoughts, others may think differently.
  Part of the reason I bought a mill was go get out more and get some exercise doing something I enjoyed so walking with the mill is a plus for me. There are people on this site with WM mills who choose the stationary and wireless heads and some unnamed members even have the seat and ride. :D Actually since I mostly work alone the seat option would be a negative factor for me but it works great for others. You just have to consider your reasons for buying or building a mill and what you plan to cut and buy/build accordingly. Good luck.


Hello WV Sawmiller! Anyone that chooses to get and run a mill is in for plenty of exercise no matter what mill you choose! I will likely be milling by myself much of the time. So far unloading the mill and rolling logs on the lift gets me plenty of exercise without chasing the carriage every cut on top of it. I am over 60 also so not quite as ambitious as I used to be! Lol, you will get there!  8)
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Offline Bandmill Bandit

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Re: To cantilever or to not cantilever
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2019, 06:50:18 PM »
There is only one manufacturer building the cantilever design. 

There are 2 reasons for this;
1)They got there first and did a first rate job of engineering and build 
BUT more importantly; 
2) they understood INTELECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS and spent significant money on advisors to protect those Rights AND included an ongoing RD division that keeps their mills ahead of the curve in the industry.

The 4 post Manufacturing Corporations have some excellent mills out there in a pretty board range of different mills in different Price ranges AND WM competes in that market as well. Some of those 4 post mills are TOP SHELF and right up there with Wood mizer but not quite a Wood mizer.

Other 4 post mills are junk. To me Cooks is next to WM and it slides down the list from there; BUT having said that the location of the dealer/support AND the quality of that support can bump any one of the better mills higher up YOUR prefered list when you are shopping for a mill.

The important factor is that YOU end up with a mill that works for you AND that you are comfortable with general maintenance procedures, disassembly and reassembly when repairs are required, Because no matter what there WILL be repairs regardless of Mill brand. They are after all machines that wear with use. Personal experience with the WM these repairs have been minimal for the just less than 2000 hours I have run my mill with NO catastrophic failures to date.

Any sales person that is worth his salt will NOT bash the competition but will direct your attention to the advantages of the product he sells and acknowledge the good things about the competition if he is pressed.

That is my not so humble opinion. Good Luck!                
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Offline WV Sawmiller

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Re: To cantilever or to not cantilever
« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2019, 06:50:58 PM »
2Trac,

   Most of the stationary head options would work for me too. The chair would not. I'd likely have to do about as much walking in any case unless I bought a high production type mill. My process is to throw the slab over and behind my sawdust pile while I am back there so I'd have to walk just about as far to do that anyway. I don't have a drag back and I typically push my flitches off onto the partially raised loading arms and offbear the finished lumber off the end of my mill on to a trailer or forks of my tractor so I'd have to walk over there to do that anyway. I have watched Marty Parsons using the hydraulics, probably a super hydraulic mill, to toss the flitches and finished boards off on to the loading arms but I don't have the equipment or skill to do that yet. I know the design of the mill drives your work process in many, if not most, cases and if I had other features I'd do things differently too. I'm sure I am not the most efficient sawyer out there but I enjoy what I am doing and am happy with my mill. I think it gives good value for what I paid for. 
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2009 4wd Dodge PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Sthil 440 & 441, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once"

Offline Southside

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Re: To cantilever or to not cantilever
« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2019, 07:43:54 PM »
WV -

One thing I have learned, the hard way, going from a 35 to a super, is that not only can you toss flitches and boards to the loading arms, you can throw cants and logs over the back stops and clear of the tire if you are not careful.   :o
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Offline WV Sawmiller

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Re: To cantilever or to not cantilever
« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2019, 08:48:40 PM »
Southside,

   Do you have stakes pounded in the ground behind your mill with dates to mark distance records for the furtherest cants thrown? Kind of like high water marks and dates and such. :D :D
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2009 4wd Dodge PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Sthil 440 & 441, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once"

Offline Southside

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Re: To cantilever or to not cantilever
« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2019, 09:08:51 PM »
No stakes yet - but I will have to break out the tape measure the next time and report in, complete with photos!!   :D  There is a bit of a learning curve when going from manually actuating a hydraulic valve to "fly by wire", especially when you increase the hydraulic flow by a factor of 6!!!  
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Offline Stuart Caruk

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Re: To cantilever or to not cantilever
« Reply #30 on: January 25, 2019, 10:02:34 PM »
IN the past I've owned a Woodmizer  LT40, LT35, and now a diesel LX450. I can put a larger log on the 450 than any of the cantilever mills, and I'd bet even the current LT 70 wide. Thye all have their limitations, but if it won't fit between the carriage of my 450 I don't really want to deal with it anyway. 

All of these machines cut great accurate boards. I prefer the super smooth finish on the 450 to the cantilever mills, but it is not the best mill for portable operations. My 450 is bolted to a concrete pad, so it's very level, and will stay that way. Back when it was stationary I couldn't get it to stay put. It would always move and required constant fiddlin to keep level. A cantilver mill, you can get a way with just dropping it and cutting it if you have to. That won't work on any 4 post mill.

Whatever you do, get hydraulics to load and turn the log, and raise and lower backstops and toeboards. Your back will thank you. My hydraulics seem to keep evolving and life gets easier all the time.
Stuart Caruk
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Offline DPatton

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Re: To cantilever or to not cantilever
« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2019, 10:20:26 PM »
Stuart hit the nail on the head here. WM so far as I know is the only mfg. that offers both cantilever and 4 post. Personally I wouldnt concern myself with cantilever. There are other considerations that are much more important.
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Offline wisconsitom

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Re: To cantilever or to not cantilever
« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2019, 10:39:46 AM »
Thanks guys.  Good points all.  No mill yet, but when I do get, will be milling relatively-small softwood logs for a time.  TSI and plantation thinning on my own land.  A bit later, much hybrid aspen could be sawn, some of which may feature figured grain.  I have come to the realization that what I need/can afford will very likely be an LT-15-level machine.  Does anyone ever mod these things, besides in Asia, where I saw a video of an LT-15 with debarker, computer, fancy controls, electric motor, etc!  Am trying to plan such a rig, though not necessarily all of that.

I'd love hydraulic, but can and likely will live with manual for at least a time.  I think an LT-15 with the right setup and perhaps a few modifications could do well for me.  Naturally, I'd be in heaven with an LT-20!

Final point:  In the market of manually-propelled mills, items like the LT-15, I happened to notice that the Norwood version in this range seems to be a bit better ergonomically.  I don't like that WM crank and if I end up with manual, would prefer to simply push unit with whole body.  On the Norwood, I believe they have a better idea on this-a push bar that is on the other side of the machine.  It looks like the operator can see what's going on better from that side, and they don't seem to have to distort their bodies the way guys with WM's seem to always be doing, kind of hunched down, neck bent, leaning to the right...it doesn't look that good, but maybe no big deal?

Thanks,
tom

Offline randy d

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Re: To cantilever or to not cantilever
« Reply #33 on: January 28, 2019, 12:00:18 PM »
One thing I can add is that Steve in Mosinee is a great guy to work with if you need extra help he has given me good advice. Randy

Offline wisconsitom

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Re: To cantilever or to not cantilever
« Reply #34 on: January 28, 2019, 12:13:15 PM »
Thanks Randy.  Evidently, there is an open house in Mosinee.   I' going to try to get there.  I think that once I'm actually talking to reps, things will start to clear up.  Also, have learned that LT-20 only is sold overseas.  Darn, that's about what I'd like.  

BTW, my land is pretty much due east of Wausau.....but a bit further.  East of Menominee reservation.

thanks,
tom

Offline Woodpecker52

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Re: To cantilever or to not cantilever
« Reply #35 on: January 28, 2019, 12:52:05 PM »
You can check out my gallery to see what one can do with  modifications with the LT15.
Woodmizer LT-15, Ross Pony #1 planner, Ford 2600 tractor, Stihl chainsaws, Kubota rtv900 Kubota L3830F tractor


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