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Author Topic: winch for saw head lifting  (Read 1487 times)

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Offline Crusarius

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Re: winch for saw head lifting
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2019, 11:54:44 AM »
So last night laying in bed I had a random dumb idea. for raise and lower winch.

Simple harbor freight chainfall. has gear reduction and brake built into it. Be very easy to put an electric motor on it. has nice heavy chain that will probably never break or wear out.

They used to be $40 from HF for a 1 ton. No idea what they are now. could run single or double. If you can find the balance point a single would be great.

Online charles mann

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Re: winch for saw head lifting
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2019, 12:00:54 PM »
and Vautour, i see you built a collar to clamp around your vertical carriage posts. what did you use for guide material? it looks like some kind of thin white plastic material, like uhmw, tivar or some kind of polycarbonate. im doing the same for mine, using the forward carriage supports as a guide rail. with the wt of my saw head, i was going to use 1/2" x 6" flat plate, cut 12" long, and boxing the guide rail/support, using 1" uhmw, hysoled to the flat plate, then where 2 of the plastic pieces overlap the other 2, install some 3/8"x 20 counter sink bolts, just for some added mechanical bondage. i will have to split the box in half, then like you did, bolt it back together, so if at any point in the future, something fails, or i want/need to mod it, i can just unbolt from the sawhead, unbolt the guide box and fix/mod to my needs.  
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Online charles mann

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Re: winch for saw head lifting
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2019, 12:15:22 PM »
So last night laying in bed I had a random dumb idea. for raise and lower winch.

Simple harbor freight chainfall. has gear reduction and brake built into it. Be very easy to put an electric motor on it. has nice heavy chain that will probably never break or wear out.

They used to be $40 from HF for a 1 ton. No idea what they are now. could run single or double. If you can find the balance point a single would be great.
@Crusaius
I saw your post and was getting around to the replies. it seems most of yaw are 3hrs ahead of me. 
i think finding center would be easy, but it would be keeping that cg nearly all the time, to prevent binding on the guide rails, and i think i can do it. i was going to mount my fuel cell at the bottom, on the outside of the carriage, so humping 1-4 5 gal jerry cans, 4, 5 or even 6 ft in the air to fill them sounds crazy. so mount it on the bottoms, and use a low psi (NMT 15 psi) fuel pump to push fuel upwards. not sure about blade lube though. mount it low, use pump, mount it high, use water hose. but then, it throws off the CG. a double chain hoist, with a crossover tube connecting both together and a single sprocket and a loop of chain run to a winch. but what about running opposite? those chain falls/hoists have a leaver that has to be moved to change direction, or, pull the chain the other direction. which heyyyy, they already have the chain installed on the chain fall, just find a sprocket to fit the chain, run chain to connecting tube, run a loop from a hand crank, or lighter duty electric motor, and go to town. may be less cost and fabricating to using that method. idk. but iv got 1 fall already, just need to buy another if i can find a sprocket to fit the chain.  
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Offline Crusarius

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Re: winch for saw head lifting
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2019, 12:23:52 PM »
I am thinking keeping it balanced for center will not be as critical as you think if you guide the mast the way you are talking.

Online charles mann

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Re: winch for saw head lifting
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2019, 01:13:34 PM »
I am thinking keeping it balanced for center will not be as critical as you think if you guide the mast the way you are talking.
im hopping so. its a lot of weight, and i hope the 3x3x1/4 sq tubing will hold up. i will be dispersing the wt along a total of 24" span, with 324 sq" of surface are per guide, or 648 sq" all together. i need to do the math and make sure the psi of the sq tubing is within tolerance. or i can mod the build and use 2 2" 4140 solid rods, which does have load capacity. but i think when a co-worker and i were talking, he pulled up a site that gave load ratings for different size/thickness of metal, and i actually upsized, from 4" x14" sq tubing, to the 5"x1/4" sq tubing, bc its capacity was a good bit more.  
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Offline Vautour

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Re: winch for saw head lifting
« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2019, 05:32:03 AM »
 

 @ Charles mann....my gearbox/motor will be attached to the carriage frame to one side and a overhead door spring will be added to the jackshaft to help with  the raising of  the head.......you asked about my plastic inserts for frame rails.. i bought this round stock piece at a scrap yard and machined them to proper size.. don't actully know what material there are made off??... TK has the same set up but only square tubing with regular theflon inserts i believe..very easy and simple to make.... hope it helps thumbs-up    
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Offline Vautour

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Re: winch for saw head lifting
« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2019, 07:43:26 AM »
@ Charles mann... just curious as to what is your plan for the adjustable roller guide method... i like Cremona's idea... i belive the B20's have this method also      .@ DOC  ... tks for the compliment the other day... did i read that you have the B20 model?..if soo what's your take on this method?.. the newer TK models have the horizontal i belive!!... your insight would be appreciated.. :)
the Gospel is WANTED by the people in 52 Countries but made illegal by their Government

Online charles mann

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Re: winch for saw head lifting
« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2019, 06:02:25 PM »
@ Charles mann... just curious as to what is your plan for the adjustable roller guide method... i like Cremona's idea... i belive the B20's have this method also      .@ DOC  ... tks for the compliment the other day... did i read that you have the B20 model?..if soo what's your take on this method?.. the newer TK models have the horizontal i belive!!... your insight would be appreciated.. :)
going to use a similar method as both our saw head guide, and the carriage guide for a wm mill.
weld a 1" rod, probably 2" off (that is the width of the 1/2" flat bar i have) bottom of the saw beam. take a piece of either 3" or my 2 1/2" sq tubing, fill it full of uhmw, bore a 1" hole through the plastic,  cut a 1/2" wide slit in the top or the tubing and upper part of the uhmw, and slide it over the 1" rod. or depending how heavy the sliding guide system will be, i may end up boring the hole through the plastic and not cutting a slot in the tubing, but suspend the, probably go up to 2" rod though, with the 1/2"x 2" flat bar and let the guide system just slide across the rod, but weld a stop on the other side, around 24" from the other guide. i wont be milling anything under 24" with my mill. operating cost would be more than the value of the material im cutting, esp if i hit something and damage a blade.  
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Offline Vautour

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Re: winch for saw head lifting
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2019, 07:21:27 AM »
....... @charles mann ... in my last pic. i forgot to mention about the sprocket i had not yet installed on the jackshaft as you see the chain going around the gearbox and going around the jackshaft(with sprocket missing)..the chain is only attached to the head not and the carriage... i will have the lifting part all done in a few days and post pics up... oh by the way...which magic button do you press to tag someone?? im still a little ignorant :-[   
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Online charles mann

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Re: winch for saw head lifting
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2019, 05:46:00 PM »
so, i visited the portland, or WM the other day and finally figured out the lifting mechanism. for the longest, i couldn't figure out where the "extra" chain would go as the head if lifting. after looking at an LX150 that was loaded and ready for delivery, i found out nearly everything i need to get my lifting mechanism up and going. 

now, I'm still not sure if I'm going to use a winch or utilize the same motors and gearboxes WM uses. I'm thinking bc of the weight of my power plant, and where it will need to be located (won't know any rough locations yet, until i get the raise/lower linear guide boxes built and installed) to keep the drive wheel shaft within acceptable length and location, either behind the band wheel, or behind the carriage vertical support. i may have to grab my back carriage vertical supports to help disperse the load on all 4 corners, not just the front 2. 
question is, would grabbing the back 2 supports be beneficial for load distro, or grabbing the rear motor support structure with a set of roller chains and snaking it through the sprockets to either a single, or maybe a sec jackshaft placed above and at the back of support structure? 
YES!!!, it will require a LOT more double roller chain, but it will help share the load of the sawed beam and motor structure. I know, timing the 2 roller chains may be a fiasco, but in the end, it may be the better choice for longevity, until i can find suitable replacement engine that doesn't weigh 2x more than a 38 hp kohler gas burner. 

if I'm not making since as to where I'm talking about linking the chain, i will do my best to draw it, but i SUCK at drawing plans, but i can read them, and i SUCK at conveying my meanings/descriptions. 
but basically, how the saw head would lift, i would do the same for the back of the motor structure, and run a roller chain, off the sawed beam jackshaft, reward, to the support structure jackshaft, and mirror the sawed beam lifting mechanism. 
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Online charles mann

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Re: winch for saw head lifting
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2019, 05:59:15 PM »
@Vautour 

what diameter rod and material did you make your jackshaft out of? 

i was thinking 1.5"-2" 1045 hot rolled, or maybe an alloy steel for corrosion resistance. 
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Re: winch for saw head lifting
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2019, 06:39:33 PM »
 

 

sorry its not to scale, but the gist of the system is there. 
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Re: winch for saw head lifting
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2019, 09:38:47 PM »
 @ charles mann ....my jackshaft is just a 2'' boiler tube (higher carbon than regular steel)   1.05 wall ...but i did machine solid insert at both ends for my pillow block (1.75'')... will read up your LX150 post.. seems interesting.. not tonight.. we're having a snow storm so i need shut eye for the morning snow removal... haha 
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Offline Woodpecker52

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Re: winch for saw head lifting
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2019, 10:59:47 PM »
I wonder if anyone has thought about a simple rank and pinion with stop set for raising and lowering the head. If to much weight on the head then spring and counterweight.  The point is to get it to zero resistance.  Woodmizer I think has a spring system in their LT15 head beams.  Any way just looking at the rack and pinion on my drill press stand got me thinking. On my simple Lt 15 start it is just basically a hand winch machine with dial stops turning a fixed 1 inch sprocket to bottom 3 inch sprocket by #40 roller chain with no spring or counter resistance assists. Anyway just thinking out loud,  I think the jackshaft and roller chain and sprockets are the way to go with dc gearmotor.  Ones that are used on assembly production lines etc.  Ebay has a ton of gear reduction units.  I also noticed on some of the European units they are using gearmotors to raise some of the heads.
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Re: winch for saw head lifting
« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2019, 11:45:07 PM »
I wonder if anyone has thought about a simple rank and pinion with stop set for raising and lowering the head. If to much weight on the head then spring and counterweight.  The point is to get it to zero resistance.  Woodmizer I think has a spring system in their LT15 head beams.  Any way just looking at the rack and pinion on my drill press stand got me thinking. On my simple Lt 15 start it is just basically a hand winch machine with dial stops turning a fixed 1 inch sprocket to bottom 3 inch sprocket by #40 roller chain with no spring or counter resistance assists. Anyway just thinking out loud,  I think the jackshaft and roller chain and sprockets are the way to go with dc gearmotor.  Ones that are used on assembly production lines etc.  Ebay has a ton of gear reduction units.  I also noticed on some of the European units they are using gearmotors to raise some of the heads.
the gear boxes WM uses on their 30-70 models are kind of a rack and pinion style, of more so, a helical/worm gear style gb. 
Cast Iron Worm Gearboxes | AutomationDirect
so instead of both the ring and pinion having a spiral bevel gear, its a straight tooth gear on the o/p, and a worm/cock screw on the input. 
as for a spring, i was thinking about doing that, but i don't think i will need it. 
I'm just trying NOT to have grab the back vert supports, which is my i was thinking of using another jackshaft and roller chain. 
I'm sure its over kill, but #40 double roller on all 4 corners should do the trick. plus i will put a turn buckle or eyebolt on each end of the chain for fine tuning and not running out of tensioning adjustment as fast. 
iv got 2 solid 9' sections of left over 2x8x1/4" sq tubing from my first frame bed build that i had to cut apart and start over. i think that should work for part of the eng support structure. just have to get the idle wheel box and band wheel installed to see how high i need the structure above the saw beam to clear the blade and guards. I'm hopping by the end of my off schedule, to have the sawed guides built, the idle box and wheel installed and the eng yarded out and a start on the support structure and determine which direction the eng rotates and move my idle wheel to the opposite side so I'm pull the wet noodle, not pushing it. then send the carriage off to the machine shop to get the drive axle housing and shaft built, along with the eng output shaft pulley bushing ordered and a shaft machined. hopefully in the 2 wks I'm at work, ill have all the pieces to assemble when i get hm and get the eng in place and mocked up, along with my carriage cross supports cut and tacked in place. iv learned to ONLY tack everything in place, in case i have to change/mod something, I'm not spending hrs grinding welds off. once mocked up and have my ducks in line, ill weld it all up and paint it. 
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Offline Woodpecker52

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Re: winch for saw head lifting
« Reply #35 on: February 26, 2019, 02:32:15 PM »
Smart Idea to tack weld set it up right then finish welds, sure is hard to correct a long weld done in error.
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Online charles mann

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Re: winch for saw head lifting
« Reply #36 on: August 06, 2019, 12:05:15 AM »
so I'm still kicking around the idea of using a winch to lift the saw beam. but i was also looking on surplus center and was kicking the idea of using an aluminum 30:1 RGB that has an output tq of 3632 in lbs, which is 302 ft lbs. if i go with, say a 14 teeth #60 sprocket on RGB, to a 60 teeth #60 at the jackshaft, that should multiply my output tq to the jackshaft by 4x correct, at the same time, reducing my speed by 4x, correct? after looking at build of the guy from NZ, and using acme rod, i figured going that, well, made my mind up to go that way, till i found out i could only get the rod in either 6' or 12' increments, pretty much from every place i found, except 1 place that wanted $25/6" for their 4140 1.5"-4 rods. so now I'm back to either a winch or using the RGB and sprocket/chain for either. would that 302 ft lbs, or 4x that if my math is correct, be enough to lift and hold a 1200-1400 lb unit? i know a 2500 lb winch will, was just wanting the ability to lift faster after exiting the cut by using a 12v dc electric motor and a pot to control speed. but if that RGB doesn't have umpf to lift and hold, then the winch it is. 

also, by coming of the jackshaft with a 60 tooth, then stepping down to say a 30 on the same shaft, at each end, down to my sawhead, then going around say a 12-14 tooth idle sprocket, then around another idle sprocket at the bottom of my carriage, then back up the bottom of the sawhead. would that just throw all the speed reduction and tq increase out the window? iv tried finding these calculation on the inter web, but I'm at a lost.
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Re: winch for saw head lifting
« Reply #37 on: August 13, 2019, 08:21:26 PM »
..... I've tried several gear box with different ratios on mine but still not satisfied with the "lifting speed".....since i'm using 24v i'm limited on power... my next try is using a 24 volt electric motor from a forklift instead of a treadmill motor... with the weight of your unit ..you might have to go hydraulic tapped into that diesel power... my two cents  
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Re: winch for saw head lifting
« Reply #38 on: August 13, 2019, 08:45:47 PM »
@Vautour

Im going with 1.5 acme rods and basically the same set up as the builder i got the plans from but with a much higher tq rating on the rgb, but a lower ratio to increase raise/lower speeds and control the down with a pot. Iv gotta find that sweet spot in motor rpm-ration to i can run at 80% capacity w/o burning out the motor prematurely. Im trying to stay away from hydraulics for now, but if i have to, ill get a continuous run 12 motor to run a pump just for raise and lower, and maybe enough flow to add carriage travel at a later time. 
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