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Author Topic: Bandsaw mill build  (Read 1621 times)

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Offline TreeStandHunter

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Bandsaw mill build
« on: February 02, 2019, 10:49:23 AM »
I figure with all of the questions I am going to need help with i mine aswell make one topic and ask them all in here as they come up. This way I am not starting a new thread for every question. 

I live in Michigan in 10 acres and have been wanting a mill for a few years now. I plan to build it stationary on concrete piers and mill trees from my property to build a barn around the mill so that I can use it indoors and have a heated space in the winter. Hoping to make the mill electric So I can run it indoors.

I am currently on the gathering stage of this build and have so far accumulated all of the steel that I will need as well as a few other odds and ends. 

Now onto my first question...I have a 10hp three phase motor that actually came off an lt-15. I do not have three phase power... looking at this tag on the motor can anyone help me in the right direction of what sizes VFD I will need to power it? I know that I could get a rotary converter but from what i have seen the cost on those is pretty high compared to a VFD.

Here is the plate on the motor:


 

In the process of building my own mill.

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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2019, 03:20:02 PM »
I think you are going to find that you need about a 20 HP VFD after the derating for single phase. The manufactur can tell you.    Muggs

Offline charles mann

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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2019, 03:31:45 PM »
im with Muggs, contact the manufacture. its their product, they should know better than most any else, what is required. you could even contact the VFD manufactures and explain what you have and what you are wanting to do and see if they have viable solution. google is friend too.  
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Offline charles mann

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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2019, 03:36:20 PM »
about 30 sec searching on google. look at the vfd section, it even brings in a 10 hp motor as an example. 

How to properly operate a three-phase motor using single-phase power - Plant Engineering
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Offline thecfarm

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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2019, 05:28:06 PM »
I always say make it long.  ;)  Much easier to have more track,than just a few inches more. Mine mill will cut a 20 foot log. I can roll a 16 foot log on and have plenty of room on both ends.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Offline TreeStandHunter

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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2019, 06:54:08 PM »
The Cfarm, its going to be around 24 of track. I probably will never use the full length but it will be nice to have if I need it.

I did a few google searches prior to asking here and did not find that specific site. I will contact the manufacturer as well to see what they have to say, thanks for the tips everyone.
In the process of building my own mill.

Offline charles mann

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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2019, 02:48:21 PM »
Curious as to what you found out for the best vfd for your application to fit your motor
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Offline TreeStandHunter

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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2019, 05:16:00 PM »
I think I am going to end up with a Hitachi SJ700 that is rated for 15hp. I talked to an electrician at work and he said I should sell the 3 phase and buy a single phase 10hp if I want electric. So my motor choice is still up in the air.

On a side note I scored big at work today. Got these 10.5 long bunks from a toboggan run that they tore down. 3/16 galvanized tubing so I think I found my new track/bunk.


 

I was planning on using this trailer for it but this will be a nice upgrade.


In the process of building my own mill.

Offline charles mann

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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2019, 01:04:52 AM »
good deal on the power system, if you stay with the 3ph. I'm NO spark chaser, but from reading what these guys say about 110v ac drawing 2x the power as 220, stay with 220. im sure you will have it on a pot so you can adjust the speed during start up/shut down, but would a soft start be better than a stand alone pot? 

good score on the reclaimed frame/bunks. iv missed out on several scores at work bc i didn't my tck, and the guy that drive in, get to take hm the prices. I'm waiting on the long lines to get inspected, and if 1 doesn't pass, iv got someone that will "secure" it for me, just gotta drive to id to get it.
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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2019, 07:57:17 AM »
I run a VFD on my vertical mill. Why the aversion to a VFD?

Offline TreeStandHunter

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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2019, 08:27:29 AM »
I run a VFD on my vertical mill. Why the aversion to a VFD?
The electrician I know just made the point that since I have to purchase the VFD than I might as well purchase a single phase 10hp motor since they will be near the same cost and just remove the VFD from the system. 
In the process of building my own mill.

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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2019, 08:33:53 AM »
My old vertical mill I used to run a static converter. When I changed up to the one I have now I purchased a VFD instead. The VFD was $10 more than the static converter. Ebay has some pretty good prices on VFD's. My 5 hp VFD cost $60.

Offline wisconsitom

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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2019, 08:54:04 AM »
I'm in a similar place-wanting to eventually end up with an electrically-powered mill.  I am finding this info helpful, as in a different thread, I was urged to go with a rotary phase converter.  Looking at some of those online made my wallet hurt from inside my pants pocket.  If VFD can work-and it sure looks like it can, then that's a cheaper option.

Thanks,
tom

Offline boardmaker

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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2019, 10:32:37 AM »
If you go the vfd route, you will have total speed control.  So if for any reason you decide to try a different band speed, it would be very easy.  You also have very detailed overload protection.  Also, the VFD will start very smooth with a little programming.

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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2019, 10:42:06 AM »
Thanks Boardmaker.  Perhaps you can clear something up for me;  Although possibly as much as 3 years away, I am planning a stationary installation up at my tree farm.  There, at present, there is single-phase service.  My question is, in selecting motor from WM, the saw rig I think I'm going to end up with, they offer both 3-phase and single-phase.  In my scenario, which one do I choose?  In reading about VFDs, it seems they can work with either, so long as other parameters are sized correctly.  And such a price swing!  What kind of cost am I looking at if I were to purchase a unit suitable for use with a WM 10-HP-rated motor?  No, I don't know the full load amps of said motor(s), but am seeking that info from manufacturer.

Thanks,
tom

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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2019, 11:26:04 AM »
If I was buying a mill from woodmizer and had the option I would not buy the 3 phase motor unless I had the power already.

The reason for me using the VFD is to replace that motor with single phase I was looking over $600. $60 into the VFD was a no brainer. But when ordering a mill the cost would probably not be much different?

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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2019, 12:17:12 PM »
I think you will find that a 10 hp single phase motor will pull about 50 amps at FLA .

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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2019, 12:26:53 PM »
Thanks Crusarius, but I remain confused.  A website I was just at said to use VFD "only" with 3-phase motors.  Meanwhile, I thought the reason, or one of the reasons, to use a VFD was because you had single-phase but wanted to show the motor on your saw 3-phase.  I'm clearly not getting this.  The good news is I've got lots of time, but I sure am getting contradictory answers. 

 In my initial post-not this thread-I was almost getting shouted at that it would be stupid to even think about running an electrically-powered mill if I don't have 3-phase power available at the site (I don't-it's single-phase).  Then somebody kindly suggested rotary phase converters...and when I priced those, my mill costs were suddenly going up exponentially.  Then, someone said use VFD.  So I looks at them online and wow.....huge price range, huge range of applications.  I get it that one needs to match motor info plate with specs for unit.....but still, not at all sure where I'm trying to get.  Sawmill manufacturer offers unit I'm interested in with single-phase or 3-phase motors.  Also not sure what's up with that.  Of course, again obviously, that would be a choice depending on what kind of power you've got.  But then reading specs for RPC'S and VFD's makes it seem-maybe-that I should run only 3-phase equip.  Again, that would seem to contradict the reason for installing the VFD or rotary phase converter in the first place.  To my confused mind, anyway!

I would like to some day be running an LT-15-like unit, with electric motor powering saw.  I will not initially need any additional powered devices off that circuit.  Of course, my needs may change later, and I wouldn't mind being set up for that eventuality.  But basically, I just want to power an LT-15 manual mill with electricity.  I can't tell for the life of me what  I should be seeking in terms of power, power handling and distribution, which motor to put on saw, etc.  Final note...building ain't built.  Probably going to be some combination of pole building, with enclosed, insulated "office" area with small living quarters.  Saw rig would be in "open" area, under roof.

Thanks,
tom

PS...thanks muggs.  Just saw your note.  Most helpful.

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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2019, 12:45:46 PM »
A VFD is not only a phase converter. it does so much more. Many ppl run them on single phase motors for speed control.

There are alot of uses for a VFD. I am not all that familiar with all of them all I know is they work great for 3 phase converter.

The way they work is by taking the sine wave of your single phase input and then converts it to a square wave. I have no idea where the third leg comes from but I know you are now using a square wave to power your equipment. The square wave frequency can be adjusted to speed up or slow down electric flow. This is great for drill presses that have single speeds or if you hate changing the stupid belts.

Youtube actually has a decent amount of good videos on VFD's. Many of which helped me understand they are more than just a phase converter.

Offline TreeStandHunter

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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2019, 01:32:18 PM »
I think you will find that a 10 hp single phase motor will pull about 50 amps at FLA .
I figured it would pull around double the 3 phase. I just need to keep an eye out for a VFD that will fit my application after it is derated. Also physically it will be much larger and that is another thing to consider.


Crusarius the VFD's for motors upto 5HP are very cost effective, after 5HP the price seems to jump dramatically and I dont want to get a cheap one that wont last long. Luckily time is on my side and I can keep an eye on one for a good buy, in the meantime I am going to work on assembling my track and carriage. I am excited to get on with the fabricating. Thanks for the suggestions, also on your sawmill build thread you had some great stuff on there that I will certainly use for referencing.
In the process of building my own mill.

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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2019, 01:38:07 PM »
I have the VFD on my drill press, exhaust fan and metal lathe however they only range from 1 hp to 3  hp for the small VFD cost is not to high. but I like them as stated you have variable speed on them.
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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2019, 01:39:47 PM »
I don't think VFD's get derated. Static phase converters derate the motor after it drops the third leg. VFD's do not drop the third leg.

Thanks for the kudos on the mill build, you have any questions I am happy to help. 


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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2019, 02:49:49 PM »
You cannot use a vfd with a standard single phase motor.  If you get the 10hp single phase, just start it across the line with a starter/contactor.

In your case, I would probably just go single phase.  I don't think the extra speed control would be worth the $$$.

However if your already had the motor, I'd seriously look at a vfd. 

And for reference, the incoming supply feeds the vfd's internal power supply.  It builds the sine wave by dc spikes.  That's called the carrier frequency.  Crazy to think that the AC is converted to DC and then it uses the DC to rebuild the AC sine wave.  Could be anywhere for 6,000 to 12,000 or more spikes per second. 

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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2019, 09:54:05 AM »
Thank you boardmaker and all.  So if I were to purchase a mill with a 10-HP electric motor, and the manufacturer of the mill offers either single-phase or 3-phase versions of same motor...and I have single-phase wiring coming to my pole.....am I wishing to purchase the 3-phase version, then go with an appropriately-rated VFD to show that motor 3-phase supply?

Or do I go with the single-phase motor and just wire normally?  At the onset of a similar thread, I was warned repeatedly that that would not work well.

Thanks,
tom

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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2019, 10:11:17 AM »
3 phase is definitely more efficient. But if you are not wired for it, it is an additional expense and more hardware to fail.

My opinion is get the single phase. It won't be as efficient as 3 phase but there is less other stuff to buy and break.

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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2019, 10:23:19 AM »
Thanks crusarius.  I have just gotten off the phone with my electric power provider and learned a few things;  Firstly, that is definitely single-phase out on that road.  This individual states that the power co. will have no issues with a 10HP-rated motor on a device.  He did say one could use an electronic soft start, which is a dumbed-down VFD, to start the motor.  No need for variable power control in a bandsaw-just run at full power usually.  I could go on to add planer, resaw...etc...so long as just one device was ever getting used at a time.  Those devices are normally run at full speed as well.  He did suggest installing sufficiently-beefy panel, transformer, etc. initially to avoid upgrade costs in that arena later.  Makes sense.

Now I'm wondering why 6 or 8 guys were almost shouting at me in a different thread that I'd need a rotary phase converter to even think about this working out.  Not at all the picture I'm getting from power co. guy.

Thanks,
tom

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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2019, 10:30:02 AM »
Truth is 3 phase is superior. But it comes at a cost. My personal preference is less things to break and less things to buy = smarter decision and more money for other toys :)

K.I.S.S.

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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2019, 02:12:09 PM »
AS far as I know, there are not any single phase soft starts available.  And if there are, don't use one.  If you lower the voltage, you will lower the available starting torque.  And if the motor stalls, your starting switch will not survive. 

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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2019, 02:16:08 PM »
The soft start capacitor on the hydraulic pump on our rescue truck is a terrible thing!!!

after so many starts the capacitor will blow. its a real PITA changing it. It is the hydraulic pump for the jaws of life. Needless to say we carry a portable unit on the truck for just such an occasion.


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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2019, 02:32:40 PM »
If you google Matt Cremona, he used a 10 HP motor with 10 HP VFD and saws everything without too much of a problem.   The bad part about a 10 hp single phase is the tremendous input current rush at starting so you have to have a higher capacity system.  The VFD is soft start, so no clutch needed or anything and starting is easy on components.
The 10HP chinese Huanyang VFD is $265 on Amazon.  The sawmill load would not be something difficult for a VFD, as long as you don't fill it up with sawdust.
You should be able to find a 10 HP 3 ph motor for pretty cheap used.
A VFD system would be easier to run off a generator too if you need to go mobile.

Offline TreeStandHunter

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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2019, 02:38:23 PM »
If you google Matt Cremona, he used a 10 HP motor with 10 HP VFD and saws everything without too much of a problem.   The bad part about a 10 hp single phase is the tremendous input current rush at starting so you have to have a higher capacity system.  The VFD is soft start, so no clutch needed or anything and starting is easy on components.
The 10HP chinese Huanyang VFD is $265 on Amazon.  The sawmill load would not be something difficult for a VFD, as long as you don't fill it up with sawdust.
You should be able to find a 10 HP 3 ph motor for pretty cheap used.
A VFD system would be easier to run off a generator too if you need to go mobile.
I followed Matts build but was not aware that he used a 10hp VFD for his 10hp motor. I am going to comment on his latest vid and find out exactly what he used because I am under the impression that with single phase input you must use a VFD that is rated for higher HP because of amperage.
In the process of building my own mill.

Offline charles mann

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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #31 on: February 07, 2019, 07:35:00 PM »
If you google Matt Cremona, he used a 10 HP motor with 10 HP VFD and saws everything without too much of a problem.   The bad part about a 10 hp single phase is the tremendous input current rush at starting so you have to have a higher capacity system.  The VFD is soft start, so no clutch needed or anything and starting is easy on components.
The 10HP chinese Huanyang VFD is $265 on Amazon.  The sawmill load would not be something difficult for a VFD, as long as you don't fill it up with sawdust.
You should be able to find a 10 HP 3 ph motor for pretty cheap used.
A VFD system would be easier to run off a generator too if you need to go mobile.
I followed Matts build but was not aware that he used a 10hp VFD for his 10hp motor. I am going to comment on his latest vid and find out exactly what he used because I am under the impression that with single phase input you must use a VFD that is rated for higher HP because of amperage.
He has a whole section within his build playlist that covers the vfd. He bought the wrong 1 at first, bought a sec 1 that had a board burned out, luckily the first vfd had the same board and he seapped it out. Then had issues with programming it and finally got it working. 
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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #32 on: February 07, 2019, 09:01:41 PM »
@TreeStandHunter 

here is Matt Cremona's motor section of his build. it is "episode" 11 of the 24 episode build. 

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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #33 on: February 07, 2019, 10:38:34 PM »
Ive watched all of his videos, a few several times. I went through the comments on his motor video and he stated to several people that it is a 15hp VFD. 
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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #34 on: February 07, 2019, 11:23:58 PM »
yes, he is using a 15 hp inverter. the sj700-110lfu designates 15 hp. 
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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #35 on: February 08, 2019, 08:37:54 AM »
@ boardmaker;  So then if I understand correctly...I would select the WM model with the 3-phase motor....if my plan was to indeed use either a VFD or rotary converter, in my single-phase supply world, correct?

Again, this is all just fun speculation for me, and an opportunity to learn a tiny bit about electric power distribution.  But I sure enjoy the convo.

My Financial Director has not necessarily gotten on-board with the mill idea yet!

Thanks,
tom

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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2019, 08:57:54 AM »
Yes.  

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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #37 on: February 11, 2019, 07:39:39 PM »
I had about 45 minutes to do some work before the kids got home from school so I started working on the track. I am hoping to come up with a way to scrap this trailer into a usable mobile track for the mill. The galvanized bunks I have are 3/16 tubing so any weight support will be done off that. The I-beam steel from this old trailer Im going to mount off the side of the galvanized in two pieces, the first to use as the rail for the carriage to roll on and the second for the axle to mount to. Also Ill be welding some plate steel to the sections of galvanized to make where they come together nice and strong. This first weld was just getting them lined up straight


 


 


 


 




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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #38 on: February 12, 2019, 07:31:33 AM »
Just fair warning. anything "I" shaped or "C" shaped will have a a tendency to twist. So make sure you support it properly. If your carriage rolls on the rails and they twist that makes for some very odd shaped lumber.

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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #39 on: February 16, 2019, 01:35:21 PM »
Thanks for the tip crusarious, I am going to make sure it is supported well and very solid. Im going to purchase some angle iron for the carriage to roll on and mount it off the I-beams nice and true. Using scrap steel nothing is square so I am make this main track part and then will mount the log bunks to that square to the angle that the carriage will roll on, if that makes sense...anyways I got a little more done today, working here and there but made some decent progress today, Im going to cut off the left leaf spring and only use the axle mount on the right side. This is my first ever welding project so its definitely a learning experience. It will be mobile but only will move once or twice a year a few miles down the road to my fathers house.



 











 



 
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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #40 on: February 16, 2019, 01:47:50 PM »
you have alot of pitting in your weld. You are either out of gas or do not have enough pressure to combat the breeze being outside. That needs to be addressed before you continue. 

It also looks like you are not using enough heat. Is that a 110v welder?

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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #41 on: February 16, 2019, 02:08:17 PM »
Its a 110 arc welder. These are definitely cold, once the mill is together before paint Ill be taking it to my father in-laws to run his 220 miller on it on anything structural. I am aware that this 110 welder is not capable of making a trailer road safe. Also I just need to practice lmao. What can I do to not have the pitting? Is that forming because of the cold weld?
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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #42 on: February 16, 2019, 03:51:48 PM »
It could be from low amperage, dirty material, bad rods, not creating a flux shield and letting O2 into the puddle during cool down, moving to fast. Low amperage is probably the culprit though. 
What size and type rod 1/8 6011? New box or box been sitting around in non climate control? 
  
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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #43 on: February 16, 2019, 04:14:22 PM »
3/32 6011 rod that I keep in my laundry room, I assume its just the low amps, maxes out at 80 amps but probably is welding at 70 realistically.
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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #44 on: February 16, 2019, 05:00:30 PM »
that is 100% dirty metal. 6011 is a relatively forgiving rod. If you can get it to arc it usually burn pretty well. 

Don't be afraid of 110. it can do structural welds and be safe. the trick is proper technique. The problem is learning proper technique on something like this is not a great idea :) especially without a teacher.

3/32 rod with only 80 amps will definitely not have much penetration though. you be alot better with 1/8"

your actual welding technique looks decent though. just a little to fast but the puddle looked alright from what I could see.

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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #45 on: February 16, 2019, 06:10:02 PM »
I am going to the farm store to buy some buckets for maple sap tonight, Ill grab some 1/8th rod while Im there. Thanks for the tip. I need a tractor with a loader this thing got heavy real quick
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Re: Bandsaw mill build
« Reply #46 on: February 17, 2019, 01:26:31 PM »
I had that same problem. the loader still not big enough.


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