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Author Topic: Sawing sequence 90 or 180?  (Read 1429 times)

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Offline Kwill

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Sawing sequence 90 or 180?
« on: February 12, 2019, 10:02:44 PM »
My question is after you make your first cut do you flip the log 90 or 180?. Ive seen both in videos. On my homemade mill so far while sawing cedar i always flipped them 90. Mostly ive been making  8x8 5x5 4x4 and some 2x4 and 2x6 2x8. On the reccomendation from magicman when i start back milling im going to center the log on the mill. Ive added a jack to be able to do this. I guess certain logs or lumber needed from the log would make the sequence of cutting different. Just wondering what others do?
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Offline WV Sawmiller

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Re: Sawing sequence 90 or 180?
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2019, 10:11:23 PM »
   I normally flip 180 to get to the width of boards I want so I have 2 sides that are free of bark and no longer need edging once I get below the bark. I will occasionally still flip 90 degrees and saw so I only have to edge on one side or if there is a knot or limb stub or such that needs to be trimmed for the cant to lay flat. In fact that is what I did on the last ash log I sawed 2 days ago. This also helps if the log/cant is pushing the limits of what I can saw.

   Usually I start with any serious heart check in a vertical position so that after I trim the first cut then flip 180 when I flip the cant the next time I will end up sawing parallel to the check and less damage to the boards.
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Offline Kwill

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Re: Sawing sequence 90 or 180?
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2019, 10:14:07 PM »
Yeah my thought was if im sawing boards id flip 90 so i didnt have to edge 2 sides.
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Offline WV Sawmiller

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Re: Sawing sequence 90 or 180?
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2019, 10:26:29 PM »
Kwill,

  I flip 180 so I don't have to edge at all on most of my boards. I only have to edge 1-2 flitches off each cut. I normally saw my final cant down to about 3.5"- 4" then stand the flitches up against the cant for extra rigidity, edge them then I resume sawing the cant down to the bed.
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Offline Larry

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Re: Sawing sequence 90 or 180?
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2019, 10:28:32 PM »
I let the log tell me.  I thought for a long time 180 was the only way to go but finally realized it depends on what the log looks like.

I would guess now I rotate 90 a little over half of the time.
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Offline Magicman

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Re: Sawing sequence 90 or 180?
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2019, 10:32:29 PM »
I try to never say never nor always.  My answer is it depends upon the log and the cut list.  Smaller logs tend to be 180 whereas the larger ones tend to be 90, but even that is not always. 

I guess that I said all of that and didn't say anything.  ::)
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Re: Sawing sequence 90 or 180?
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2019, 10:42:24 PM »
Most of the time I rotate 90, in my opinion its more efficient because by the time Ive rotated 270 Im ready to make boards on smaller logs. On logs over 32 when Ive rotated 180 with the wide head I can cut a flitch down to 18 1/4 drop to 12 1/8 drop to 6 then flip all 3 cants up and burry 2 tail gunners in 2x6s 
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Offline Kwill

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Re: Sawing sequence 90 or 180?
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2019, 10:42:37 PM »
Kwill,

  I flip 180 so I don't have to edge at all on most of my boards. I only have to edge 1-2 flitches off each cut. I normally saw my final cant down to about 3.5"- 4" then stand the flitches up against the cant for extra rigidity, edge them then I resume sawing the cant down to the bed.
Ok so you make your first cut then flip 180  with the cut square side down then make a cut then flip 90 and start cutting boards?
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Offline WV Sawmiller

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Re: Sawing sequence 90 or 180?
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2019, 10:55:28 PM »
   Yes but I usually get a flitch or two on that 3rd and even the final face. The go on the loader arms till I get low on the cant then I edge them and finish off the cant. This is normal but as others mention above I will vary this in some cases as the log dictates.
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Offline Southside

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Re: Sawing sequence 90 or 180?
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2019, 10:56:35 PM »
I find that on larger logs if I flip 180 I get square cants much more frequently - say 20" + or ones with sweep and other issues. Smaller than 20" and nice and straight 90 is faster and stays square, plus it gives you two views of what the inside looks like at the same time.  
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Offline OffGrid973

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Re: Sawing sequence 90 or 180?
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2019, 11:07:04 PM »
Sometimes it depends how much saw dust is in the eyes, nose and ears...but for slabs I stick to 180, for final boards do 90, 90, 90 until I realize there was some bark on a bunk at some point causing not to be square and start all over again, LOL.
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Re: Sawing sequence 90 or 180?
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2019, 11:17:20 PM »
I usually flip 180.   After I make the 90, I check  the outside face and bunk with a square.  If needed, I can make adjustments by using the two way clamp

Offline Kwill

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Re: Sawing sequence 90 or 180?
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2019, 11:28:44 PM »
I mill cedars so some logs have quite a but of taper. So when i started milling i would do the 90 90 90 and ge the log as square as i could then start cutting it into what i needed. Is worked ok but i felt i could get a few more boards but with the taper they would be short ones. I done a few upgrades to the mill while being stuck in the shop with all the rain. Im hoping to saw the next couple days. I need to make several 12ft 2x6  and another 8x8. Thanks for the ideas
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Offline Woodpecker52

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Re: Sawing sequence 90 or 180?
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2019, 11:34:42 PM »
I usually cut 1st face turn 180 cut for my desired  width, turn 90 cut then turn 180 for cant.  what few boards under bark I edge at the end.   I am only cutting 4/4 boards right now. Is this wrong or can I do it a better way?
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Re: Sawing sequence 90 or 180?
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2019, 11:46:51 PM »
I find that on larger logs if I flip 180 I get square cants much more frequently - say 20" + or ones with sweep and other issues. Smaller than 20" and nice and straight 90 is faster and stays square, plus it gives you two views of what the inside looks like at the same time.  
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Offline Southside

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Re: Sawing sequence 90 or 180?
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2019, 11:53:18 PM »
I find that on larger logs if I flip 180 I get square cants much more frequently - say 20" + or ones with sweep and other issues. Smaller than 20" and nice and straight 90 is faster and stays square, plus it gives you two views of what the inside looks like at the same time.  
With that super 70 revved up, you could turn 720 faster than most of us turning 90...... I have the envy bad .   ;D
Yea - but when you throw a log over the back stops and it lands 15' past the mill you loose all that time you saved to begin with when you have to fish said log back out of the wall.   :o
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Offline Chuck White

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Re: Sawing sequence 90 or 180?
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2019, 06:35:38 AM »
Most times I make a couple of cuts, then flip 180 and saw down until I get the width of boards I want!

On really big logs I usually flip 90, taking a few cuts off of each side as it's rotated on the mill!
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Offline 47sawdust

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Re: Sawing sequence 90 or 180?
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2019, 07:20:15 AM »
When I'm lazy it's 180.If the logs are dirty,it's 90 so I am cutting into fresh wood.As others have mentioned it makes edging easier as well.Actually 90 is really 270 as I turn the log into the backstops then check to see the my opening face is square to the bed.
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Offline WDH

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Re: Sawing sequence 90 or 180?
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2019, 07:54:27 AM »
Turning 180 relieves more stress in a log. 
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Re: Sawing sequence 90 or 180?
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2019, 10:02:57 AM »
I saw for myself and maximum yield. I will place log how I want it on the bed then take a thin slab off the top trying to get it straight / flat. after I am happy with a flat face I will roll it 90 degrees and do it again till I have a nice flat face maybe leave a little wane depending. Then flip it another 90 and take the slab then make all my boards. this makes a 3 sided cant.

This leaves me with 1 live edge on everything. So I can either use them with the live edge or trim it off and get maximum board width for the length I need.

This does minimize my firewood for the year though. Since I burn wood for heat it means I need to cut more :)

alot of times any board with wane gets cut into stickers. I have found you can never have to many stickers.

Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: Sawing sequence 90 or 180?
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2019, 10:31:59 AM »
I sawed on a circle mill and I sawed hardwood grade logs for the most part.  I turned 90 almost always.  I had target sizes for the hearts, and I would take that into consideration when setting on my third and fourth face.  

The sawing sequence was to saw on the best face first.  When grade dropped one grade, then it was time to turn.  You learn how to read a log so to maximize dollar yield.  My target for the second face was a 6" board.  We had no market for the select grade.  Again, turn 90 when the grade starts to drop.

Depending on size of the remaining log would dictate my next starting point.  On a big log that would need to be turned, I would allow some room for a shim cut.  If I had to turn back to another face, the shim cut would get rid of any stress that had developed.  Any time I turned back to another face, I would take a shim cut.  Customers don't like thick and thin lumber.  On a smaller log, I would enter the log so that I ended up at my target size without a shim cut.

Face 4 would be the same procedure as face 3.  If after hitting my target size and there was still recoverable grade, I would go after it.  Most times, I dumped my product after hitting the target size.  Chasing grade is often a losing game.  Especially as you get closer to the pith.

I had the support equipment to allow me to saw in this manner.  I also didn't saw dimension stock.  Rare was the time I was sawing pine or hemlock.  When I did saw pine, I had a lot of different dimensions to cut.  It mainly went into cabin stock.  

I've watched guys saw hardwoods using the 180 method, but it was mainly in tie or lower quality logs.  Like Larry said, it depends on the log.  It also depends on your sawing list. 
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Offline JB Griffin

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Re: Sawing sequence 90 or 180?
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2019, 09:48:06 AM »
Spot on again Ron. 90,90,90 dump and on to the next one. Theres no money in the heart (pith) better to box it into a 4x4 than to saw it into lumber that ain't worth nuthin, at least you would always have something to stack your good lumber on and never want for a fence post.
Turning 180 relieves more stress in a log.  
That ain't always a good thing, can be very bad at times.

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Offline Brad_bb

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Re: Sawing sequence 90 or 180?
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2019, 10:02:17 AM »
When I first started milling I was flipping 90, but after a log of encouragement and being stubborn I finally listened to Magicman and started flipping 180.  Now I flip 180 95+ percent of the time.  By cutting the two parallel faces first, you can look at the two remaining bark faces and determine if one is straighter than the other so you can put that face down, then raise the small end however much you need to.  In other words, the wonky end is up and you're not fighting it on the bed and struggling with how much to raise it's small end. 180 just seems to work out better.
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Re: Sawing sequence 90 or 180?
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2019, 01:06:10 PM »
I try to never say never nor always.  My answer is it depends upon the log and the cut list.  Smaller logs tend to be 180 whereas the larger ones tend to be 90, but even that is not always.  

I guess that I said all of that and didn't say anything.  ::)
Guess that I will quote myself.  My sequence depends upon the log and the cut list, but in reality most of mine are all 90.   Pecker poles are mostly 180 which yield 4X4's.  I am dealing with many of them on my present job sawing over 100, 4X6's. 
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Re: Sawing sequence 90 or 180?
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2019, 04:34:33 PM »
small logs 180 large logs 90. most of the time.
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Re: Sawing sequence 90 or 180?
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2019, 07:31:28 PM »
I try to never say never nor always.  My answer is it depends upon the log and the cut list.  Smaller logs tend to be 180 whereas the larger ones tend to be 90, but even that is not always.  

I guess that I said all of that and didn't say anything.  ::)
Guess that I will quote myself.  My sequence depends upon the log and the cut list, but in reality most of mine are all 90.   Pecker poles are mostly 180 which yield 4X4's.  I am dealing with many of them on my present job sawing over 100, 4X6's.
Magicman do you keep the log jacked up for all 4 sides?
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Offline Chuck White

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Re: Sawing sequence 90 or 180?
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2019, 08:15:17 PM »
If I was sawing and flipping 90, I would keep the toeboard up only on the opening cut and the first 90 flip!

After that you'll have a sawn surface on the bunk, no call to raise it then!  ;)
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Re: Sawing sequence 90 or 180?
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2019, 08:18:30 PM »
When turning 90, the toe board is used for the 1st and 2nd face openings.

When turning 180 they would be used for the 1st and 3rd face openings.
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Re: Sawing sequence 90 or 180?
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2019, 08:37:29 PM »
Well - that's what your "supposed" to do... sometimes one just needs to create long wedges!!   :D
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Re: Sawing sequence 90 or 180?
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2019, 09:03:01 PM »
Been there, even last week.  My saving grace was that I was able to turn the targeted 4X6 the other way and all was good....almost.  Almost, because the pith was still within the 4X6 but badly off center.  :-\
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Re: Sawing sequence 90 or 180?
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2019, 09:11:08 PM »
I reckon Ill roll 90 for this.  Ive got four 12 perfectly round, straight, about 26 D mostly tight grained SYP logs from a blow over and a standing tree that I want to make house siding out of. Ive got the Wood Mizer lap siding attachment that came with the old mill but Ive never used it. So tell me if Im right about this. I believe I should use the heartwood only, and Ill only get one 8 cant from each log. Is it practical to get a couple of very small cants off the sides and make siding from those as well? Do I saw down until I hit knots then flip 180 and  make a beam the knotty center?   Im matching siding thats already on the building and planning to put the new boards up greenish so Ill saw slightly oversized.

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Re: Sawing sequence 90 or 180?
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2019, 09:53:17 PM »
I have produced quite a bit of lap siding using my WM resaw and SYP, as long as the heart / sapwood ratio is balanced and centered, along with the knots being small and or out of the reveal it has never created an issue to use as much of the log as it will produce.  Siding is very forgiving from a stress / movement standpoint.  
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Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.

Offline appleseedtree

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Re: Sawing sequence 90 or 180?
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2019, 10:23:19 PM »
So maybe the sequence would be to saw off the top to get to an 8 width, roll 90 and do the same followed by a cut down to the target cant. Put that slab aside to resaw into a much smaller cant off the side but centered over the pith, roll 90 again and again and repeat yeilding 1 full size cant and 2 small cants with 4 pieces out of the corners to make smaller boards from. Did that make sense?

Offline Magicman

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Re: Sawing sequence 90 or 180?
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2019, 10:33:37 PM »
Just saw until you find the apple seed in the tree.  :D



 
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

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Offline Southside

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Re: Sawing sequence 90 or 180?
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2019, 10:45:54 PM »
I guess my first question is what do you have for a saw?  When I am producing siding I basically grade saw the log to get the best grade from each face regardless of width to begin with (assuming it exceeds what I need),  turning as the grade drops, until I get down to a cant that is the size of the siding across one width.  I will then edge those flitches or boards down to my target siding size before beveling them as a final step.  The now sized cant is sawn into siding blanks, flipping 180 as needed to deal with stress.  In this case I will have some siding free of juvenile wood, and some with balanced juvenile wood.

The other method I use for a higher grade siding is to use a modified version of the RRQS method, where I will use a marker to highlight the growth rings, this way I can produce cants with vertical grain, this usually ends up with about a 6" x 6" cant in the center which can go into several other products. I then saw down through the cants producing vertical grain siding and edge as above.  

With either method the edging from the target siding is turned into a secondary product (framing, ship-lap, flooring, etc) depending on how big it is, if nothing else it becomes a sticker, so there is basically zero waste.   

I ask what kind of saw you have as this would probably become a very labor intensive method with a manual saw, with hydraulics it's easy.  The re-sawing portion is much faster than creating the initial blanks.  I have a 10' infeed and 10' outfeed roller on my re-saw, connected to the frame so that they bevel with the saw, otherwise you will have issues with longer boards flexing and creating thick and thin results.  
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.

Offline Southside

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Re: Sawing sequence 90 or 180?
« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2019, 10:46:43 PM »
Just saw until you find the apple seed in the tree.  :D


(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

Wow!!  Is that real?
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.

Offline appleseedtree

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Re: Sawing sequence 90 or 180?
« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2019, 09:11:29 AM »
Dang!  Nice apple!  Ill give your suggestion a try. 
Meanwhile, Ive partnered with someone else on an LT40 hydraulic so now its easy to turn logs. My primary objective is the siding and a few trim boards, and Im looking for the most efficient way to get them. Not necessarily looking for the vertical grain but seeking the method thatll boost my normally low production rate.

Offline Escavader

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Re: Sawing sequence 90 or 180?
« Reply #37 on: February 19, 2019, 07:10:11 PM »
When sawing for grade,with a real good automatic log turner ,a sawyer can make the best grade by turning turning turning and studying the log real good.the time turning will pay for itself in profit.
Alan Bickford
Hammond lumber company/Yates American A20 planer with dbl profilers Newman feed table multiple saw trimmer destacker automatic stacking machine Baker resaw MS log corner machine  4 large capacity Nyles dehumidification kilns JCB 8000 lb forklifts woodmizer lt 15 and mp100 and blower


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