Rope versus steel cable for pulling down the tree

Oregon40Acres · February 23, 2019, 01:03:39 PM

I'm an amateur with twenty years of amateur experience. I'm lucky in that I seldom have to deal with anything other than conifers, which are normally straight enough for me to be able to bring them down without many surprises.

However, I have some power lines running through my land, and the local power company is usually slow about bringing down snags that threaten the lines, so sometimes I'll take care of the ones that are far enough away from the power lines to be fairly safe to work with. Even so, I NEVER just cut down such a tree; I always bring it down with a steel cable and a come-along to be absolutely certain that it will come down in approximately the right direction.

I have long enjoyed watching those YouTube videos of "idiots with chainsaws"; it's reassuring for me to know that I can instantly see what they're doing wrong, although it really doesn't take a lot of intelligence to discern idiocy. From there I started watching videos of guys demonstrating the right way to handle certain situations. Again, most of this stuff doesn't apply to me because I'm not taking down 300-year old oaks with huge branches heading off in every direction. However, I saw one guy dealing with a tricky tree, and he used rope to keep it from falling in a bad direction. "Rope?!?!" I thought. It looked like only 3/8" rope; there's no way that rope can prevent a big tree from going in whatever direction it dang well pleases. Even worse, the fellow tightened the rope by hand with a pulley. "Come on!" I thought.

Now, I've watched a number of videos from this fellow and he has demonstrated a lot of smarts in his other stuff. So this bothered me. I always use steel cable and a come-along to pull down a tree. Now, he wasn't using the rope to pull down the tree, just preventing it from going sideways as he cut. But still... ROPE?!?!!

I'm asking the experts here if steel cable is inadvisable to use. I know that it can kill you if the connectors break loose. Those cables store a LOT of energy when they're taut, and if it breaks on one end (usually the tree end), then the whole thing whips back to the other end (usually the guy on the come-along). So what's the consensus among the pros? Steel or rope?

lxskllr · February 23, 2019, 01:30:14 PM

I'm not an expert, and I only use rope cause it's what I have, but I always weight the line when I'm pulling. I hang a gear bag or something from it. Should help prevent lash back, though I've never had it.

Old Greenhorn · February 23, 2019, 01:59:39 PM

OK, I'll bite because I have done a lot of these. First there are two things to consider: A) are you trying to guide the tree where you want just in case it tends to go another way, or 2) Are you trying to force the tree to go the way you want in spite of the physics? The first option is a precautionary measure to provide insurance and safety, the second is an engineering maneuver.
I always try to figure things out so that any rigging is just ensuring that everything works out as planned and protects 'exposures' in case it doesn't. For these type jobs I use static rope, about 3/4" or more in diameter. Sometimes a block and tackle in residential situations where a building is involved, pulled tight and secured against a fall in the WRONG direction. I only use cable when I am forcing a move, that is, actually pulling the tree where I need it to be. I want minimum stretch and flex in these situations, and I want to transmit all the pulling power directly to the tree.
Keep in mind that EVERYTHING will stretch. Rope, cable, chain, even steel bar will stretch. The question is, how much? Rope will of course stretch the most and therefore hold the most stored energy, cable less, and steel bar, much less. I have seen steel cable go through a truck hood (it had a hook on it), but nothing scared me more than when we straightened out a hook on a rope block and tackle (3x2 sheaves) and that block shot about 40' until it ran out of rope and shot back again.
If you want safe, put yourself in the forestry cab of a skidder and use the 1/2" cable winch to pull your tree over. Cable does store energy, but nothing near what a good rope can store. If you set your rigging for minimal load on the lines and maximum safety of the drop zone, you really can't go wrong. This sounds simple, but it takes some practice to really think through the physics involved. It's a art and it is VERY gratifying when you get it just right. Personally, rope is my first choice because it is easy to work with and feels good in my hands, but I go to cable or chain for the worrisome work.
Did that help?

Oregon40Acres · February 23, 2019, 02:02:56 PM

Quote from: lxskllr on February 23, 2019, 01:30:14 PM
...I always weight the line when I'm pulling. I hang a gear bag or something from it. Should help prevent lash back, though I've never had it...

That's a great idea! Definitely solves the lash back problem. I will do that. Thanks!

Chuck White · February 23, 2019, 02:04:33 PM

If I want a tree to fall "pretty-much" exactly in a certain spot, we use my brothers Deutz with a logging winch and 1/2 inch steel cable and secure it up on the tree between 15 and 20 feet.

Otherwise, I'll use my 1/2 inch nylon/cotton blend rope and hook it onto the front of the loader on my little JD-1023E. I'll back up until the rope is snug, then stretch the rope another 10-15 feet and set the brake!

Oregon40Acres · February 23, 2019, 02:18:10 PM

Quote from: Old Greenhorn on February 23, 2019, 01:59:39 PM
A) are you trying to guide the tree where you want just in case it tends to go another way, or 2) Are you trying to force the tree to go the way you want in spite of the physics?

The former; I wouldn't touch a tree that was leaning in a dangerous direction. That's a problem I leave to the pros. But again, since I'm dealing with conifers, I don't face anywhere near as tough a problem as other people face.
Almost all of my snags are dead Douglas firs. The higher summer temperatures from global warming are killing many of my Douglas firs. I did a quick census of about 8 acres of my land and found 51 dead Douglas firs and 55 living Douglas firs (I don't count the little guys in the census). At least 12 of those snags threaten the power lines. Moreover, I need to get them out before fire season starts in earnest in July. Again, Douglas firs are pretty easy to bring down safely.

doc henderson · February 23, 2019, 04:16:21 PM

hey Oregon. I assume you live there. How hot are your summers getting? I had not heard that global warming was killing doug firs.

Gary Davis · February 23, 2019, 08:06:29 PM

we get global worming its called summer and global cooling its called winter

doc henderson · February 24, 2019, 02:50:00 AM

I have used tow straps, rope, cable and I have a 85 foot 1/2" chain I got on clearance at TSC. Use caution with all, but especially the chain. Oregon, since only 1/2 of your trees are dead, might want to see if there is a forester in your area to see what has caused their demise, to protect the other trees. doug firs are tough trees that can sometimes survive forest fires due to thick bark. Let us know what you find.

square1 · February 24, 2019, 05:13:13 AM

The newer synthetic ropes (wire rope I think it's called) is very strong. The 3/8" has something like a 20,000 lb working load limit. Nonetheless I don't think I'd use it for tree work. I have an aversion to roping trees though.

petefrom bearswamp · February 24, 2019, 09:20:04 AM

I do like Chuck does.

Andries · February 24, 2019, 10:32:30 AM

My son runs an arborist company, where he gets called in to drop the tricky trees.
He does the climbing and cutting, I do the rigging for lowering tree sections or directional felling.
We only use synthetic ropes.
The have the weight advantage over steel, are rated for over 20, 000 lbs. and have minimal stretch. Almost zero stored energy because of the "no-streach" character of the rope.
If the OP is doing a bunch of the Doug Fir work mentioned earlier, have a look at a Maasdam puller. It's like a come along but lighter, uses rope and it's not a pricey tool.

Iwawoodwork · February 24, 2019, 02:44:05 PM

Doc, I have consulted the state forester here (near Eugene Oregon) and was told that due to the unusual dry seasons we have been experiencing the fir trees get stressed (weakened ) then the bugs move into the tree. On my place it takes about three years and I have a dead tree. these are from 8" to 24" diameter doug fir. I have lost about 30 trees on my little acerage with more in the dying process
.
As for what to use to guide or pull a tree (directional falling) I prefer cable, (wire rope, hay wire) I trust my knowledge with cable better than rope.

pine · February 24, 2019, 04:17:33 PM

Quote from: Iwawoodwork on February 24, 2019, 02:44:05 PM
Doc, I have consulted the state forester here (near Eugene Oregon) and was told that due to the unusual dry seasons we have been experiencing the fir trees get stressed (weakened ) then the bugs move into the tree. On my place it takes about three years and I have a dead tree. these are from 8" to 24" diameter doug fir. I have lost about 30 trees on my little acerage with more in the dying process
.
As for what to use to guide or pull a tree (directional falling) I prefer cable, (wire rope, hay wire) I trust my knowledge with cable better than rope.

Did the state forester talk about whether or not you had any evidence of Phellinus sulphurascen? That is a big killer of DF in the NW part of the US (Oregon and Washington especially) Yes the extra dry summers that we have had and the extra wet winters have stressed all the tree species but what you describe of nearly 50% loss (55 living and 51 dead) seems to be a bit much for the conditions that we have experienced. What is your soil type in on your land? I would presume that the state forester brought out a full site analysis to review with you and help you with your plan.

doc henderson · February 24, 2019, 04:35:17 PM

some of the fungal diseases are treatable, just not practical on a large scale. The environment including draught and heat can make an otherwise healthy tree more susceptible to disease. I do not care to blame global warming/climate change for everything/(anything). Oregon, you seem like a smart guy and are going about this in a good way. My comments are not meant to be directed at you in anyway. It is so politicized it is blamed for everything and therefore you can believe little that is published about it. Oregon, I hope you can find a practical solution to save your remaining trees. Best wishes.

BargeMonkey · February 27, 2019, 12:23:32 AM

I came out of the maritime industry, there was less and less wire, "amsteel" or "spectra" synthetic was used alot. I used a piece of 2.5" 8 strand for yanking over hazard trees, rated at 150tons. The problem with the synthetic stuff is damage, you've cant have them rub, chaff, drag on the ground, that's what ruins them over wire.

Peter Drouin · February 27, 2019, 08:01:50 PM

I'm 100% Steel.

OddInTheForrest · March 01, 2019, 06:53:47 AM

I've seen good use of rope for my part. Then again, beeing in the same industry as Mr.Barge above here, its commercially graded rope from the fishing/trawl industry. I use 16mm rope (not sure what that is in inches) for a skyline-setup, and it works like nothing else. Not the longest streches, but up to 300feet has worked for me.

For pulling trees over, I use a Spectra/Dynema rope, rated for 12 000 kg, in the range of 24-25 000 pounds (?). Its ligth enough to hang on my climbing harness and bring up with me when I climb, and strong enough to force most trees over the way I want it. But like said above, it dont like pinchpoints and sharp edges. If I'm in doubt, I rig it up with blocks/tackles, to make sure I get enough pullingpower. A mechanical advantage is always good to have, and ofcourse, having a long enough piece of rope. My dynemaline is 120meters, wich is very handy.

Best regards
Odd.

Skeans1 · March 01, 2019, 10:05:14 AM

Most of the time playing with something along lines roads, lines, or property corners I'll jack over Douglas fir. Are you sure you don't have root rot running in your patch?

Quote from: Oregon40Acres on February 23, 2019, 02:18:10 PM
Quote from: Old Greenhorn on February 23, 2019, 01:59:39 PM
A) are you trying to guide the tree where you want just in case it tends to go another way, or 2) Are you trying to force the tree to go the way you want in spite of the physics?
The former; I wouldn't touch a tree that was leaning in a dangerous direction. That's a problem I leave to the pros. But again, since I'm dealing with conifers, I don't face anywhere near as tough a problem as other people face.
Almost all of my snags are dead Douglas firs. The higher summer temperatures from global warming are killing many of my Douglas firs. I did a quick census of about 8 acres of my land and found 51 dead Douglas firs and 55 living Douglas firs (I don't count the little guys in the census). At least 12 of those snags threaten the power lines. Moreover, I need to get them out before fire season starts in earnest in July. Again, Douglas firs are pretty easy to bring down safely.

Riwaka · March 01, 2019, 03:01:54 PM

Around here the property owner can be liable for damage to the power company's power lines/ power poles if the property owner's trees fall on the lines. Hence in recent years there has been quite a lot of tree clearance work along the power company's power lines. Most property owners figure it is less expensive to get the tree guys before any big trees fall/ blow over on the lines and end up with two payments - power co and tree guy.

Steel cable if the power lines can be turned off. Check you have no neighbours with respirators or expensive tropical fish in a tank (heat and water oxygenator etc), chicken farms usually have generators. etc.

Lines can't be turned off - dyneema etc. Helicopters/ cranes have been used to take trees apart with wire cable. (or lighten one side of the tree so when the tree is cut at the stump it falls away from the lines. Road closure - had to drop the trees on the roadway - cheaper than shifting the power lines.
One roadway with the trees at the top of a steep bank with power lines behind took a week to drop the trees down the bank onto the road and cleanup. (Power company's tree crew)

brianJ · March 01, 2019, 04:51:14 PM

Quote from: doc henderson on February 24, 2019, 04:35:17 PM
some of the fungal diseases are treatable, just not practical on a large scale. The environment including draught and heat can make an otherwise healthy tree more susceptible to disease. I do not care to blame global warming/climate change for everything. It is so politicized it is blamed for everything and therefore you can believe little that is published about it. Best wishes.

This ought to be highlighted much more.

BargeMonkey · March 01, 2019, 06:25:42 PM

Quote from: Riwaka on March 01, 2019, 03:01:54 PM
Around here the property owner can be liable for damage to the power company's power lines/ power poles if the property owner's trees fall on the lines. Hence in recent years there has been quite a lot of tree clearance work along the power company's power lines. Most property owners figure it is less expensive to get the tree guys before any big trees fall/ blow over on the lines and end up with two payments - power co and tree guy.

Steel cable if the power lines can be turned off. Check you have no neighbours with respirators or expensive tropical fish in a tank (heat and water oxygenator etc), chicken farms usually have generators. etc.

Lines can't be turned off - dyneema etc. Helicopters/ cranes have been used to take trees apart with wire cable. (or lighten one side of the tree so when the tree is cut at the stump it falls away from the lines. Road closure - had to drop the trees on the roadway - cheaper than shifting the power lines.
One roadway with the trees at the top of a steep bank with power lines behind took a week to drop the trees down the bank onto the road and cleanup. (Power company's tree crew)

Nothing wrong with being a member of the "Big blue flash club" 😂 I joined 4yrs ago trying to jack over a monster hard maple on a right of way.

Firewoodjoe · March 01, 2019, 07:36:23 PM

I'm sure every where is different but what do you get if u take a power line out these days.

Mike W · March 01, 2019, 07:57:48 PM

Angry Neighbors :D

Old Greenhorn · March 01, 2019, 08:06:41 PM

Quote from: BargeMonkey on February 27, 2019, 12:23:32 AM
I came out of the maritime industry, there was less and less wire, "amsteel" or "spectra" synthetic was used alot. I used a piece of 2.5" 8 strand for yanking over hazard trees, rated at 150tons. The problem with the synthetic stuff is damage, you've cant have them rub, chaff, drag on the ground, that's what ruins them over wire.

2.5"? Geez Barge, where did you get that? Sounds lie something you'd find on a tug for a tow hawser. ;D