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Author Topic: Ash tree fall fail  (Read 1938 times)

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Offline wbrent

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Ash tree fall fail
« on: March 04, 2019, 07:40:25 PM »
Tried to cut my first ash tree today. 20 at the butt. Cut my wedge. Bore cut from both sides since my saw was too small. Tapped in a wedge on either side. Carefully lined up and cut the back cut. At first crack got out of there. Looking back saw the tree not only fall but split up from the hinge a full twenty feet. So what did I do wrong?  Wedge not deep enough?  Hinge too wide. It was probably about four inches. Bad luck?  It fell where I wanted. So at least got that right. Now I have some work to do to salvage it on the he mill.
Ill try my best to post pictures.

Offline wbrent

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Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2019, 07:50:33 PM »
 

 

 

Offline lxskllr

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Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2019, 07:58:41 PM »
Curious to see what others say. I'd have gone deeper on the face cut. Otherwise, it looks reasonable to me.

Online Old Greenhorn

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Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2019, 08:00:54 PM »
First off, it appears that your hinge was over 2 inches thick, way too thick. The hinge has to bend, and when it's that thick, it can't. Not sure of the tree size, but you really don't want any thicker than an inch and a half. The width of the hinge really doesn't matter. If you think it is too wide or more than you need you can bore through the center to relieve it. The thick hinge did you in, (basically, you forced it to barber chair, very dangerous) but you did everything else right, you got out of the way, assuming you did not walk directly back from the tree. I rarely see my trees hit the ground.  You got lucky, learn from this one. OH, and buy a lottery ticket, it's your lucky day. :D :D :D

P.S. are you sure that's Ash?
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Offline luvmexfood

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Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2019, 08:06:22 PM »
Most people here have forgot more about cutting trees than I will ever know. But thought I would take a stab at it to see how wrong or right I may be. I see too much hinge, back cut a little high and maybe not enough saw to keep up the cutting before it started over. Around here ash tends to barber chair real easy. I would have probably came in through the face and bore cut the center out.
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Offline WDH

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Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2019, 08:17:19 PM »
When I left the hinge too thick and pounded in wedges on an ash like that one, the exact same thing happened. 
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Online Old Greenhorn

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Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2019, 08:21:33 PM »
As luvmexfood pointed out as i was looking at the photos again. that back cut is above the facecut by a fair amount, this probably started the split, and yes, ash splits really easy once it starts.
Here is the basic way I do these trees: Aim your face cut carefully, start with the top cut, then do the lower cut so that you can look down through the top cut and see when the bar comes through, do not lets these cuts pass each other, they should meet evenly all the way across. The WIDTH of the notch should be at least 80% of the tree diameter. The angle of the notch should be 70 or more. (You want that hinge to stay intact until the tree is nearly on the ground, this is your control. A narrow notch will snap early and there is no control after that.) Then do your bore cut at the same level as the bottom of the front notch. Focus on getting a straight even hinge of about 1 to 1-1/2 inches. Once you have the hinge (from both sides), then come back far enough to have a solid holding piece. Set your wedges at this point if you need them or think it has a chance of setting back. Come around to the back and cut the holding wood (from a standing position if you can), exit at a 45 angle from the fall line. If it doesn't fall, drive your wedge(s). Keep looking up to check the branches for shake and dead fall (also very dangerous).

Are you really sure that's ash? If so, what kind? It's not like like the White Ash we have here. Pretty heartwood.
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Online Old Greenhorn

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Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2019, 08:38:25 PM »
Just as a after-after thought, I wanted to make sure you didn't think I was being critical of your felling. Far from it. This is dangerous stuff if not done right. You did fine (and yeah, you got a little lucky, because if that split section had broken off and pin-wheeled, well man, I can tell you that is a mighty scary thing and I have witnessed it.)
 I learned a lot the hard way. I just wanted to tell you what I learned and what works for me. Your mileage will of course, vary. I was just trying to help you cut safer. I have attended too many accidents over the years and won't miss a chance to try and prevent one. Just be careful out there.
 If you filled in some of your user profile info it would help us to understand where you are located and that in turn, might get you some better answers. The photos look a lot like the woods around here.
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Offline wbrent

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Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2019, 09:11:43 PM »
Thanks all for the replies. So consensus is the hinge was too wide.  Thats what I figured. The other thing though was my Hong cut and back cut were not at the same level as the bottom of the wedge cut. I have not been trying to do that. Always a few inches up from the bottom of the wedge. That was bad advice I got from I dont know where. Id like to think Im being pretty careful. I know this is dangerous stuff. I always cut my back cuts pretty slow. First sign of maovement or cracking and Im outa there. 
Im in New Brunswick Canada by the way. And as I far as I know this is indeed an ash tree. I was surprised too to see the dark center. 
Any thoughts on how I should mill it up?

Offline Southside

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Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2019, 09:12:07 PM »
@WDH - I believe I asked you once about Brown Ash if you remember as we used to weave pack baskets and such growing up using it because it would split so easily.  This looks like what I knew to be Brown Ash, if so the split would not surprise me at all, especially as clean as it is.  I think you would have to leave a very, very, thin hinge to prevent that from happening if it is the same wood.  
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Offline WDH

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Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2019, 09:20:18 PM »
SL,

Check out the link.  There is a black ash, "Fraxinus nigra", that was used extensively for weaving baskets.  This is probably your "brown ash".

Fraxinus nigra - Wikipedia




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Offline Southside

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Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2019, 09:31:02 PM »
Thanks - I suspect it is, or was as the case may soon be.  They do call it brown ash as well in the link too.  I didn't remember using a mallet on it until I read that is how it's separated and went - "yup".  Maybe my old trapping pack will be worth something one day!!  
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Offline lxskllr

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Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2019, 09:36:36 PM »
 The other thing though was my Hong cut and back cut were not at the same level as the bottom of the wedge cut. I have not been trying to do that. Always a few inches up from the bottom of the wedge. That was bad advice I got from I dont know where.
I believe you generally want to stay a couple inches(not a few) up from the base of your notch to help prevent possible kickback by the tree.

Online Pine Ridge

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Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2019, 09:40:32 PM »
Aim for your hinge thickness to be 10 percent of DBh when bore cutting. If that tree is 18 inches diameter at breast height you would want the hinge to be 1.8 inches thick. Be impossible to get all hinges exactly perfect, little under or very little over is usually alright, takes lots of practice. And ash will split very easily if the hinge is too thick.
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Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2019, 09:51:38 PM »
Any thoughts on how I should mill it up?
Well you already have it split in half...... Oh so sorry man, I couldn't resist. Actually I have no idea, there are some great millers here and they should chime in.
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Offline BargeMonkey

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Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2019, 09:59:42 PM »
 We all make mistakes, we have all done it, your lucky you had the sense to go, that's a killer. Less than 1/2 the hinge you've got, alot of times on good wood with direction to it I've got the sides of the tab cut and not much left on the stump. 
 Theres "suggested" amounts for DBH, alot comes into play, is the wind blowing ? how much top ? lean ? a fatter hinge is more forgiving on softwood, ash is known for that, ive seen them fall, hit the ground and bust in 1/2 like that when they land. 

Offline Ianab

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Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2019, 10:29:05 PM »
Another vote for too much hinge wood. The wide hinge you left was stronger then the force needed to split the log. The notch is deep enough, although a deeper one would have left a thinner hinge, so would bringing your bore cut forward. I usually bore in well clear of the hinge, in case I'm not lined up where I think I am, then saw forward AND back from there. Otherwise your technique was correct. A bore cut like that gives you plenty of free time to get the hinge cut "just right", so you can take your time doing that, nibble a bit and check from each side etc. 

And you know the bit about clear your escape path, and get the heck out of there once things start moving. (as expected, or otherwise)  :D

As for sawing what's left? You've made a start on quarter sawing it already. Once you trim a waste  board off each split face the rest of the log should still be OK. 
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Offline Iwawoodwork

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Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2019, 11:51:51 PM »
I think the hinge had very little to do with the barberchair.  The face was not deep enough for the type of wood, as ixskiller stated he was cutting the back cut and it started to go/fall so he took off (very good move on a barberchair) so he could not stay there and finish his backcut to make the hinge narrower.  The Alder here in the NW is very prone to splitting, as it sounds like Ash is,  so deep face and maybe place a strap or chain wrapped around just above the cut

Offline Hans1

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Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2019, 12:37:59 AM »
Without seeing the amount of lean my best guess would be way to thick of a hinge. I have been cutting walnut lately it is very prone to splitting and the better the tree the more likely to split. These are cut with no hinge at all just bore cut out all the middle leaving a few spurs or root flair then cut these until it falls over zero directional control but zero chance of what happened to you. A better compromise may be to make that hinge closer to the fall side, take the notched out of the bottom humboldt and then bore out middle 1/2 to 2/3 of the hinge basically leaving a post of a hinge on both sides. I would only use the wedges if the lean was hard to judge. Glad you made it away safely.

Offline Ianab

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Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2019, 03:38:41 AM »
I think the hinge had very little to do with the barberchair.  The face was not deep enough for the type of wood, as ixskiller stated he was cutting the back cut and it started to go/fall so he took off (very good move on a barberchair) so he could not stay there and finish his backcut to make the hinge narrower.  The Alder here in the NW is very prone to splitting, as it sounds like Ash is,  so deep face and maybe place a strap or chain wrapped around just above the cut
I read it as he had bore cut, leaving a back strap, and when he cut that to release the tree, it barberchaired. He wasn't doing a conventional back cut up to the hinge when it went. Looking at the stump you can see the bore and holding strap cuts, and that big fat hinge is what stands out as not quite right. 
Bore cutting is a good technique for leaning or barber chair prone trees as you can get your hinge whittled down to "just right" before the tree moves, rather than racing the tree to complete the cut in the last seconds. 
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Offline tacks Y

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Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2019, 07:31:25 AM »
As has been said to much hinge. I sold all my ash, 4 tri-axle loads. The first tree I sawed I did the same thing. Goods news it was the only one, had one with a nice fork that split back when it hit.

Offline Plankton

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Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2019, 05:04:01 PM »
Too much hinge. on a nice ash sawlog I ussually leave around and inch plus or minus, bore out the center through the face and nip the "ears" on either side of the face. As much wood as you can take out however you can without compromising the fall direction is a good rule for high grade hardwood falling.

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Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2019, 07:21:39 PM »
toooooo much hinge wood. I have done it, we all have done it. go cut the one next to it and stay safe!!!!!
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Offline jd540b

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Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2019, 07:09:47 AM »
Too thick hinge for sure.

Good rule of thumb for holding wood (hinge) is 80% diameter of tree in length and 10% diameter of tree in thickness.

10 tree=8 long and 1 thick
20=16 and 2....etc.

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Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2019, 08:03:03 AM »
I agree with the hinge being too fat. Iwawoodworker mentioned something I've done a few times if I'm worried about it barberchairing. I've wrapped a heavy chain around it above the cut so that if it does split it can't throw. The concern in my head then is that the chain is heavy enough not to become the problem if it splits.
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Offline jd540b

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Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2019, 09:51:41 AM »
Don P. I have done that too if Im pulling a heavy leaner over or something like that.  Will use chain and chain binder of HD ratchet strap.Works really well.

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Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2019, 01:45:35 PM »
 One other problem is I think the tree was froze also. Ash and hickory when frozen are harder to judge the hinge.
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Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2019, 05:06:24 PM »
Cut up a couple five foot lengths and milled today. Pleasantly surprised. Btw my local forester tells me this is still White Ash.

 

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Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2019, 07:52:39 PM »

(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)
 
(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

Well, i don't see a fail, either for firewood or sawmill! :D 
It's a nice slab, split perfectly on the quarter; which, if well sawn and advertised as such, could bring a premium.  And if it's for firewood, well, look at it, as less splitting work to  do! :D 
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Offline Skeans1

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Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2019, 06:25:50 AM »
The main thing is the hinge is too thick that caused the chair. To the face myself I would of been shooting for a deeper face roughly about the middle of your hinge, when putting in your face the depth as well as the angle of the face have effect on the tree in this case Id say both helped the tree chair. An open or even a block face allow the hinge to bend instead of break which is great for staying on the stump not so great for a chair situation. Im not a huge fan of boring a back cut Ill use a coos cut on a leaner or standard back cut everything else.

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Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2019, 08:27:35 AM »
When I took my GOL (game of logging training) I was taught to make the hinge 10% of the diameter and the face cut in about 20-25%. Then do the plunge cut, about in the middle between the hinge and the back of the tree about 2-3" higher. Then bring the hinge to the 10%, in this case, 20" tree, 2" hinge. Then it in doubt, do a plunge cut directly in the back and drive a plastic wedge. If still in doubt use the chain or heavy strap idea to help hold the trunk from splitting. That wedge is not needed in the back if the tree has any lean in the right direction. Then cut from the hinge out the back. And as you did, as soon as the tree starts to tip, run 45 degrees away from the tree, but keep an eye on it to be certain it is going away from you, but not straight away.
As others have said, ash and a few others are prone to split, so that would be a good time to use a heavy strap or chain.
Any tree that you drop that gets no body or anything valuable hurt is a success. 
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Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #31 on: April 14, 2019, 09:15:41 PM »
And yes it's white ash. 
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