The Forestry Forum is sponsored in part by:

iDRY Vacuum Kilns


Forestry Forum
Sponsored by:


TimberKing Sawmills



Toll Free 1-800-582-0470

LogRite Tools



Norwood Industries Inc.




Your source for Portable Sawmills, Edgers, Resaws, Sharpeners, Setters, Bandsaw Blades and Sawmill Parts

EZ Boardwalk Sawmills. More Saw For Less Money!

STIHLDealers.com sponsored by Northeast STIHL


Woodland Sawmills

Peterson Swingmills

 KASCO SharpTech WoodMaxx Blades

Turbosawmill

Sawmill Exchange

Michigan Firewood, your BRUTE FORCE Authorized Dealer

FARMA


Baker Products

ECHO-Bearcat

iDRY Wood Lumber Vacuum Drying for everyon

Baltic Abrasives Technologies Nyle Kiln Dry Systems




Author Topic: Ash tree fall fail  (Read 1893 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline wbrent

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 19
  • Age: 50
  • Location: Hampton NB Canada
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Ash tree fall fail
« on: March 04, 2019, 07:40:25 PM »
Tried to cut my first ash tree today. 20 at the butt. Cut my wedge. Bore cut from both sides since my saw was too small. Tapped in a wedge on either side. Carefully lined up and cut the back cut. At first crack got out of there. Looking back saw the tree not only fall but split up from the hinge a full twenty feet. So what did I do wrong?  Wedge not deep enough?  Hinge too wide. It was probably about four inches. Bad luck?  It fell where I wanted. So at least got that right. Now I have some work to do to salvage it on the he mill.
Ill try my best to post pictures.

Offline wbrent

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 19
  • Age: 50
  • Location: Hampton NB Canada
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2019, 07:50:33 PM »
 

 

 

Online lxskllr

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1267
  • Age: 50
  • Location: MD USA
  • Gender: Male
  • dummy with saw
    • Share Post
Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2019, 07:58:41 PM »
Curious to see what others say. I'd have gone deeper on the face cut. Otherwise, it looks reasonable to me.

Offline Old Greenhorn

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1259
  • Age: 64
  • Location: Catskill Mountains, NY
  • Gender: Male
  • An old coot, still learning.
    • Share Post
Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2019, 08:00:54 PM »
First off, it appears that your hinge was over 2 inches thick, way too thick. The hinge has to bend, and when it's that thick, it can't. Not sure of the tree size, but you really don't want any thicker than an inch and a half. The width of the hinge really doesn't matter. If you think it is too wide or more than you need you can bore through the center to relieve it. The thick hinge did you in, (basically, you forced it to barber chair, very dangerous) but you did everything else right, you got out of the way, assuming you did not walk directly back from the tree. I rarely see my trees hit the ground.  You got lucky, learn from this one. OH, and buy a lottery ticket, it's your lucky day. :D :D :D

P.S. are you sure that's Ash?
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 450, 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) I mill for fun and my mental health. NYLT Certified.

I ain't the woodcutter, but I can cut wood 'til the woodcutter gets here.

Offline luvmexfood

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1306
  • Location: Southwest Virginia
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2019, 08:06:22 PM »
Most people here have forgot more about cutting trees than I will ever know. But thought I would take a stab at it to see how wrong or right I may be. I see too much hinge, back cut a little high and maybe not enough saw to keep up the cutting before it started over. Around here ash tends to barber chair real easy. I would have probably came in through the face and bore cut the center out.
Give me a new saw chain and I can find you a rock in a heartbeat.

Offline WDH

  • Forester
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 28798
  • Age: 65
  • Location: Perry, GA
  • Gender: Male
  • April 1998 - August 2008
    • Share Post
    • hamsleyhardwood.com
Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2019, 08:17:19 PM »
When I left the hinge too thick and pounded in wedges on an ash like that one, the exact same thing happened. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5640SU, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Offline Old Greenhorn

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1259
  • Age: 64
  • Location: Catskill Mountains, NY
  • Gender: Male
  • An old coot, still learning.
    • Share Post
Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2019, 08:21:33 PM »
As luvmexfood pointed out as i was looking at the photos again. that back cut is above the facecut by a fair amount, this probably started the split, and yes, ash splits really easy once it starts.
Here is the basic way I do these trees: Aim your face cut carefully, start with the top cut, then do the lower cut so that you can look down through the top cut and see when the bar comes through, do not lets these cuts pass each other, they should meet evenly all the way across. The WIDTH of the notch should be at least 80% of the tree diameter. The angle of the notch should be 70 or more. (You want that hinge to stay intact until the tree is nearly on the ground, this is your control. A narrow notch will snap early and there is no control after that.) Then do your bore cut at the same level as the bottom of the front notch. Focus on getting a straight even hinge of about 1 to 1-1/2 inches. Once you have the hinge (from both sides), then come back far enough to have a solid holding piece. Set your wedges at this point if you need them or think it has a chance of setting back. Come around to the back and cut the holding wood (from a standing position if you can), exit at a 45 angle from the fall line. If it doesn't fall, drive your wedge(s). Keep looking up to check the branches for shake and dead fall (also very dangerous).

Are you really sure that's ash? If so, what kind? It's not like like the White Ash we have here. Pretty heartwood.
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 450, 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) I mill for fun and my mental health. NYLT Certified.

I ain't the woodcutter, but I can cut wood 'til the woodcutter gets here.

Offline Old Greenhorn

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1259
  • Age: 64
  • Location: Catskill Mountains, NY
  • Gender: Male
  • An old coot, still learning.
    • Share Post
Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2019, 08:38:25 PM »
Just as a after-after thought, I wanted to make sure you didn't think I was being critical of your felling. Far from it. This is dangerous stuff if not done right. You did fine (and yeah, you got a little lucky, because if that split section had broken off and pin-wheeled, well man, I can tell you that is a mighty scary thing and I have witnessed it.)
 I learned a lot the hard way. I just wanted to tell you what I learned and what works for me. Your mileage will of course, vary. I was just trying to help you cut safer. I have attended too many accidents over the years and won't miss a chance to try and prevent one. Just be careful out there.
 If you filled in some of your user profile info it would help us to understand where you are located and that in turn, might get you some better answers. The photos look a lot like the woods around here.
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 450, 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) I mill for fun and my mental health. NYLT Certified.

I ain't the woodcutter, but I can cut wood 'til the woodcutter gets here.

Offline wbrent

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 19
  • Age: 50
  • Location: Hampton NB Canada
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2019, 09:11:43 PM »
Thanks all for the replies. So consensus is the hinge was too wide.  Thats what I figured. The other thing though was my Hong cut and back cut were not at the same level as the bottom of the wedge cut. I have not been trying to do that. Always a few inches up from the bottom of the wedge. That was bad advice I got from I dont know where. Id like to think Im being pretty careful. I know this is dangerous stuff. I always cut my back cuts pretty slow. First sign of maovement or cracking and Im outa there. 
Im in New Brunswick Canada by the way. And as I far as I know this is indeed an ash tree. I was surprised too to see the dark center. 
Any thoughts on how I should mill it up?

Offline Southside

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 4611
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Wilsons (Dinwiddie County), VA
  • Gender: Male
  • Have a plan to saw every log you meet.
    • Share Post
Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2019, 09:12:07 PM »
@WDH - I believe I asked you once about Brown Ash if you remember as we used to weave pack baskets and such growing up using it because it would split so easily.  This looks like what I knew to be Brown Ash, if so the split would not surprise me at all, especially as clean as it is.  I think you would have to leave a very, very, thin hinge to prevent that from happening if it is the same wood.  
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.

Offline WDH

  • Forester
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 28798
  • Age: 65
  • Location: Perry, GA
  • Gender: Male
  • April 1998 - August 2008
    • Share Post
    • hamsleyhardwood.com
Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2019, 09:20:18 PM »
SL,

Check out the link.  There is a black ash, "Fraxinus nigra", that was used extensively for weaving baskets.  This is probably your "brown ash".

Fraxinus nigra - Wikipedia




Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5640SU, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Offline Southside

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 4611
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Wilsons (Dinwiddie County), VA
  • Gender: Male
  • Have a plan to saw every log you meet.
    • Share Post
Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2019, 09:31:02 PM »
Thanks - I suspect it is, or was as the case may soon be.  They do call it brown ash as well in the link too.  I didn't remember using a mallet on it until I read that is how it's separated and went - "yup".  Maybe my old trapping pack will be worth something one day!!  
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.

Online lxskllr

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1267
  • Age: 50
  • Location: MD USA
  • Gender: Male
  • dummy with saw
    • Share Post
Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2019, 09:36:36 PM »
 The other thing though was my Hong cut and back cut were not at the same level as the bottom of the wedge cut. I have not been trying to do that. Always a few inches up from the bottom of the wedge. That was bad advice I got from I dont know where.
I believe you generally want to stay a couple inches(not a few) up from the base of your notch to help prevent possible kickback by the tree.

Offline Pine Ridge

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 268
  • Age: 50
  • Location: Elkhead , mo
  • Gender: Male
  • Part-time logger, Full time loafer
    • Share Post
Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2019, 09:40:32 PM »
Aim for your hinge thickness to be 10 percent of DBh when bore cutting. If that tree is 18 inches diameter at breast height you would want the hinge to be 1.8 inches thick. Be impossible to get all hinges exactly perfect, little under or very little over is usually alright, takes lots of practice. And ash will split very easily if the hinge is too thick.
Husqvarna 550xp , 2- 372xp and a 288xp, Chevy 4x4 winch truck

Offline Old Greenhorn

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1259
  • Age: 64
  • Location: Catskill Mountains, NY
  • Gender: Male
  • An old coot, still learning.
    • Share Post
Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2019, 09:51:38 PM »
Any thoughts on how I should mill it up?
Well you already have it split in half...... Oh so sorry man, I couldn't resist. Actually I have no idea, there are some great millers here and they should chime in.
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 450, 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) I mill for fun and my mental health. NYLT Certified.

I ain't the woodcutter, but I can cut wood 'til the woodcutter gets here.

Offline BargeMonkey

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2931
  • Age: 35
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2019, 09:59:42 PM »
 We all make mistakes, we have all done it, your lucky you had the sense to go, that's a killer. Less than 1/2 the hinge you've got, alot of times on good wood with direction to it I've got the sides of the tab cut and not much left on the stump. 
 Theres "suggested" amounts for DBH, alot comes into play, is the wind blowing ? how much top ? lean ? a fatter hinge is more forgiving on softwood, ash is known for that, ive seen them fall, hit the ground and bust in 1/2 like that when they land. 

Offline Ianab

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13212
  • Age: 57
  • Location: Stratford , New Zealand
  • Gender: Male
  • Marmite on toast is a real breakfast
    • Share Post
Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2019, 10:29:05 PM »
Another vote for too much hinge wood. The wide hinge you left was stronger then the force needed to split the log. The notch is deep enough, although a deeper one would have left a thinner hinge, so would bringing your bore cut forward. I usually bore in well clear of the hinge, in case I'm not lined up where I think I am, then saw forward AND back from there. Otherwise your technique was correct. A bore cut like that gives you plenty of free time to get the hinge cut "just right", so you can take your time doing that, nibble a bit and check from each side etc. 

And you know the bit about clear your escape path, and get the heck out of there once things start moving. (as expected, or otherwise)  :D

As for sawing what's left? You've made a start on quarter sawing it already. Once you trim a waste  board off each split face the rest of the log should still be OK. 
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Offline Iwawoodwork

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 71
  • Age: 74
  • Location: Cottage Grove, OR.
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2019, 11:51:51 PM »
I think the hinge had very little to do with the barberchair.  The face was not deep enough for the type of wood, as ixskiller stated he was cutting the back cut and it started to go/fall so he took off (very good move on a barberchair) so he could not stay there and finish his backcut to make the hinge narrower.  The Alder here in the NW is very prone to splitting, as it sounds like Ash is,  so deep face and maybe place a strap or chain wrapped around just above the cut

Offline Hans1

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 89
  • Location: South cental iowa
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2019, 12:37:59 AM »
Without seeing the amount of lean my best guess would be way to thick of a hinge. I have been cutting walnut lately it is very prone to splitting and the better the tree the more likely to split. These are cut with no hinge at all just bore cut out all the middle leaving a few spurs or root flair then cut these until it falls over zero directional control but zero chance of what happened to you. A better compromise may be to make that hinge closer to the fall side, take the notched out of the bottom humboldt and then bore out middle 1/2 to 2/3 of the hinge basically leaving a post of a hinge on both sides. I would only use the wedges if the lean was hard to judge. Glad you made it away safely.

Offline Ianab

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13212
  • Age: 57
  • Location: Stratford , New Zealand
  • Gender: Male
  • Marmite on toast is a real breakfast
    • Share Post
Re: Ash tree fall fail
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2019, 03:38:41 AM »
I think the hinge had very little to do with the barberchair.  The face was not deep enough for the type of wood, as ixskiller stated he was cutting the back cut and it started to go/fall so he took off (very good move on a barberchair) so he could not stay there and finish his backcut to make the hinge narrower.  The Alder here in the NW is very prone to splitting, as it sounds like Ash is,  so deep face and maybe place a strap or chain wrapped around just above the cut
I read it as he had bore cut, leaving a back strap, and when he cut that to release the tree, it barberchaired. He wasn't doing a conventional back cut up to the hinge when it went. Looking at the stump you can see the bore and holding strap cuts, and that big fat hinge is what stands out as not quite right. 
Bore cutting is a good technique for leaning or barber chair prone trees as you can get your hinge whittled down to "just right" before the tree moves, rather than racing the tree to complete the cut in the last seconds. 
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)


Share via delicious Share via digg Share via facebook Share via linkedin Share via pinterest Share via reddit Share via stumble Share via tumblr Share via twitter

xx
What tree did you fall from?

Started by Jeff on General Board

61 Replies
11241 Views
Last post May 13, 2008, 09:09:05 AM
by tcsmpsi
xx
apple sometimes doesn't fall far from the tree

Started by timberlinetree on General Board

4 Replies
628 Views
Last post April 26, 2015, 06:27:35 AM
by timberlinetree
xx
Large area tree fall

Started by mfraser on Ask The Forester

4 Replies
794 Views
Last post April 05, 2018, 03:38:53 PM
by TKehl
thumbup
It just don't never fail!

Started by DanG on General Board

9 Replies
1053 Views
Last post June 26, 2005, 06:02:52 PM
by Fraxinus
 


Powered by EzPortal