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Author Topic: mustang problem  (Read 2319 times)

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Offline Jeff

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mustang problem
« on: April 02, 2019, 04:55:52 PM »
I;ve not driven this car other than on and off a trailer, and moving it in the garage.  After wiring it, the only thing I was not sure of was the electric cooling fan.  We took it outside and ran it, watched the gauge, it got warm but the fan never came on. I had another sensor here, swapped that out and still would not come on. That is when I noticed the heater hoses were both cold even though the engine was warm.  I pulled the thermostat housing and found there was no thermostat and the one heater house port in there was plugged with red silicone gasket sealer.   I got a new gasket and thermostat and put it in.  Car heats up then over heats fast.   Thermostat didn't open. top radiator hose is cool.

Is it possible that the electric water pump is turning in the wrong direction? Its obvious to me they had some sort of issue due to the red silicone and no themostat.
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Offline Raider Bill

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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2019, 04:57:43 PM »
Can you see water flowing in the radiator? Is there enough coolant?
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Offline lxskllr

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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2019, 05:02:41 PM »
Wiring the pump backward would make it turn backward, no?

Offline doc henderson

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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2019, 05:11:23 PM »
Does the coolant look clean and normal color.  I have had an air lock in a cooling system that stopped circulation.  Fan and pump kicked on but no effective circ.  can you hot wire the pump to see if it then circulates and therefor the pump working.  is the temp sensor turning on, can you test it separate with a heat source and ohm meter.  Do you need/use a thermostat (mechanical)  if using a electric fan and circ. pump?  and yes a dc motor should go opposite direction with reverse polarity, but the pump may not effectively circulate if spinning backwards to the way it was designed.  With the electric pump, it may dead head against a mechanical thermostat and take a long time to open it up since it cannot circulate. does the electric pump have a bypass circuit.  So for now I would remove that thermostat until fully dx. problem with electric stuff.  I am sure someone will have more first hand knowledge, but could check with a speed shop and see if this is normal to not have thermostat when using electrical components to reduce pull on motor for performance.
timberking B 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.

Offline Holmes

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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2019, 09:48:42 PM »
Could it be a plugged up radiator? Is it an old car.  My 66 mustangs radiator was in poor/ plugged up  condition after15 years 
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Offline snowstorm

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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2019, 06:48:31 PM »
if that fan stat is sorta the same as a air clutch fan on a truck. the ones i have worked on had a 190 degree fanstat. that is in the tstat housing. when the water temp hits 190 power goes from one side to the other. wire that to the fan. i usually put a switch in so i can turn the fan on. the fan will need to be grounded. as far as overheating. do you think the silicone was to block off the hose? strange. why an electric pump? do you have a picture of the motor?   351? 

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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2019, 06:57:19 PM »
I'm having some trouble wrapping my head around the problem. Does this sound right?


Originally, the car kept cool(perhaps too cool), but it had no thermostat, and the heater core was blocked off.

It now has a thermostat, and the coolant goes to the heater core, but it overheats.

I don't understand how that could happen. The present condition is virtually the same as the original condition, and should if anything, keep the car cooler. Bad thermostat maybe? I've never had an issue, but I've heard of getting bad new ones.

Offline Jeff

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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2019, 07:00:13 PM »
351w




I do not know if it stayed cool. I think it did not. Even at 200 the fan never kicked on, and the temp kept going up. That's why I started looking.
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Offline doc henderson

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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2019, 07:37:48 PM »
do u have a non contact thermometer.  A mechanical thermostat is needed for a mechanical fan and mechanical pump, to allow the engine to warm up.  all electric does not need one cause the system itself does not kick in until temp is reached i.e. the fan and pump.  does you electric thermostat relay have the thermistor in the block in the old location?  i would mock up the thermostat since you have a second and see if when heat is added of it closes the relay.  i assume the pump and fan operate when voltage is applied directly.  looks like a new alum. radiator.
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Offline doc henderson

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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2019, 07:45:56 PM »
as nice a job as you did on the wiring, You should be able to isolate things and dx. the problem.  jumper or hot wire the pump and see if it makes noise and moves fluid.  jump the fan and see if it comes on and turns proper direction.   If they both work it has to be the elect. thermostatic switch.  make sure the sensor/thermistor is in a good spot.  
you can leave the mech. thermostat out or some will drill 1/8th inch holes to allow a little flow so the fluid and move and reflect the heat from the engine. if it (the pump)bypasses, the mech themostat will not see the heat of the fluid, and will only open after heat migrating through the iron gets to it, after warming up the fluid inside.
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Offline Jeff

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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2019, 07:50:43 PM »
Pics of the cooling system. I'm going to get a new thermostat housing with a port in it for the sensor to be right there. Right now it's on a riser on the manifold.



 

 

 

 
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Offline doc henderson

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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2019, 08:22:10 PM »
can you turn on the aux. and hit the sensor with a heat gun, to see if things kick on?  intake or exhaust manifold?
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Offline snowstorm

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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2019, 07:28:42 AM »
temp sensor needs to be in the t stat housing. seems odd there is such a small pipe from bottom rad hose to pump. also there attempt at a serpentine belt. there is little contact of belt to crank pulley and a turnbuckle ?? if it was mine the electric pump would go. put what it was meant to have  along with a t stat. and do something about the belt. that dose not look dependable and gives the impression that maybe other things are not quite rite. that fan may be big enough it can push or pull you want it to pull

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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2019, 07:30:48 AM »
as nice a job as you did on the wiring, You should be able to isolate things and dx. the problem.  jumper or hot wire the pump and see if it makes noise and moves fluid.  jump the fan and see if it comes on and turns proper direction.   If they both work it has to be the elect. thermostatic switch.  make sure the sensor/thermistor is in a good spot.  
you can leave the mech. thermostat out or some will drill 1/8th inch holes to allow a little flow so the fluid and move and reflect the heat from the engine. if it (the pump)bypasses, the mech themostat will not see the heat of the fluid, and will only open after heat migrating through the iron gets to it, after warming up the fluid inside.
the holes are to help remove air from the system after its been apart

Offline Jeff

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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2019, 08:03:46 AM »
The fan and pump both work. 
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Offline Old Greenhorn

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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2019, 08:25:38 AM »
I am not familiar with this electric setup. It seems if you have a temp sensor that will turn on the pump at a given temp, then you do not need a mechanical thermostat, is that correct? Having a thermostatic valve as well as a temp sensor/switch would be redundant, would it not?
 I am just trying to figure out the design intent of this system and as you say, the fan and pump are both working, but I am not sure what the status of the sensor/switch is. Maybe I should go back and read from the beginning.
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Offline Old Greenhorn

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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2019, 08:42:23 AM »
 I'm going to get a new thermostat housing with a port in it for the sensor to be right there. Right now it's on a riser on the manifold.

Hang on, I just re-read the thread twice and caught this. If the sensor is on a riser, it may not be seeing any water at all. It needs to be in the flow path. Maybe I read it wrong, but just raising the point for you to ponder.
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Offline Jeff

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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2019, 12:48:47 PM »
That's what I thought, that's why I ordered the housing with a port in it.
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Offline low_48

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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2019, 11:19:34 PM »
I'd think about pulling the water pump. Are you sure it's even turning an impeller? The thermostat was taken out for some reason. Second thing would be an air lock in the heater. Crack the top hose and see if coolant comes out. 

Offline moosehunter

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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2019, 10:16:35 AM »
Jeff, I agree with the others that suggest you ditch the electric water pump. Unless the pony will only be a drag strip car that pump will just be a liability. imho. 

mh
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Offline Jeff

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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2019, 01:22:34 PM »
Jeff, I agree with the others that suggest you ditch the electric water pump. Unless the pony will only be a drag strip car that pump will just be a liability. imho.

mh
What all would I need to put it back together stock? I have no parts.
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Offline moosehunter

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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2019, 08:54:19 PM »
Hopefully just a water pump and pulley and correct belt. The parts store should be able to help with bolts. The pulley you might find new but I'm sure you can find one in a scrap yard or online.
It could be much more complicated if the original accessories have been changed. 

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Offline doc henderson

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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2019, 09:57:32 PM »
may need a new fan, poss. fan clutch and shroud to fit fan.  I would try to heat up the sensor to see if it comes on, with a heat gun or torch on the metal, with car off.  Or jump the pump and see if there is flow and or also jump the fan and let the car run.  If can idle and stay cool running then the cooling system is ok, just need to locate the sensor in a hotter spot. Does rock auto or similar carry those parts.  might at least have an exploded parts view and prices.  some used to need and extension to get the fan close to the radiator.  is it a serpentine belt? if so you may need a special pully or go back to v-belt.  Hate to ask, but have you had a follow up conversation with seller to see if there were any issues before?  Good luck
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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2019, 07:38:14 AM »
I bought a motor out of a van,300-6 Ford. I was swapping a V8 to this 300. I had a little bit of a hard time finding all of the brackets I needed for the swap, power steering, alternator and so on. Don't be shocked if parts are kinda hard to find.
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Offline snowstorm

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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2019, 07:50:08 AM »
ford parts .com this is the ford factory site not after market. i dont know if it will go back old enough to help you. it will have the parts drawing part number and list price

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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2019, 08:19:26 AM »
I think to begin with, it is going to stay electric. This is a hobby car. Fun car. I'll try to play with what is there, then go from there.  I though I had mentioned that I know the pump and fan both work.  With me new dialectical system I can easily isolate to run, or jump and run any of the add on electrical components.
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Offline Hilltop366

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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2019, 09:03:55 AM »
and the one heater house port in there was plugged with red silicone gasket sealer.


This has me wondering. Was it intentionally plugged or excessive use of silicone?  Could there be more in the system?

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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2019, 10:39:32 AM »
I think they just had a little too much around the hole, and it squished into the opening. The only issue to begin with was the fan didn't kick on at temp. It didn't overheat that I know of. Its only been tested setting idling, so without a fan, its boaund to eventually get to warm. Going down the road I figure it would have been fine.

waiting for the housing
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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2019, 05:37:41 PM »
 

 
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Offline millwright

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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2019, 08:48:20 PM »
Run a manual switch, then just watch the gauge and turn it on when you need it

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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #30 on: April 08, 2019, 08:51:28 PM »
I could do that, but then i would have to watch the gauge and turn it on when i need it. :D
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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #31 on: April 09, 2019, 02:30:03 PM »
I had a similar problem on an engine that the electric fan would not come on but fan was factory, not aftermarket. The problem was solved by installing a thermostat with a lower temperature rating. I think it had a 195  deg thermostat and I switched it to a 185 deg. Don't know if this would apply to your situation.  

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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #32 on: April 09, 2019, 08:25:14 PM »
Jeff, I agree with the others that suggest you ditch the electric water pump. Unless the pony will only be a drag strip car that pump will just be a liability. imho.

mh
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Offline Old Greenhorn

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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #33 on: April 09, 2019, 08:32:10 PM »
Jeff, did you put the new manifold on with the sensor port yet? I am hoping this will change the dynamic and you might learn something more. If you did, curious to hear what you learned.
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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #34 on: April 09, 2019, 08:46:39 PM »
Ive not been able to get back to it yet. Lots of yard work to get done and a website to get together for a member.
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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2019, 09:37:11 AM »
I'm not sure about your problem but I do agree with the diagnostics of most other members. One thing I would add is that small block fords come with water pumps which turned in one direction when they had v belts ,and the opposite direction after they went to serpentine belts. I'm sorry that i dont remember which is which,and am not where my reference books are.
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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2019, 06:33:07 PM »
The new thermostat housing with the new sensor port cured the issue. At 185 the fan kicks on.  I took it for an innitiation drive around the block.(holy crap)
When i got back, fan was off, and came back on after sitting at idle a couple minutes.

Seems to be good to go. On to whatever next needs attention.
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Offline Old Greenhorn

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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #37 on: April 10, 2019, 07:05:03 PM »
I had a feeling... Glad that solved it. ANd I bet it looks better too!
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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #38 on: April 10, 2019, 08:25:08 PM »
Pulled the mustang out on the pavement for the first time. At about a 5mpg roll i gave it about half peddle. It broke both back wheels lose. I heard wildflower yell Hey!!  I'm afraid I'm  heading for trouble. :D
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Offline Southside

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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2019, 08:37:24 PM »
Any idea how many ponies that baby is making?
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Offline Jeff

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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #40 on: April 10, 2019, 08:44:47 PM »
No clue.
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Online Ianab

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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #41 on: April 11, 2019, 06:27:20 AM »
Thing is. if you don't know what internal mods were made to the engine, it's hard to tell from the "bolt ons ". The cam profile and heads make a big difference. 
So a 351 could be 250-350 hp with few external differences. 

I just hope the guy that assembled the engine isn't the same one that did the wiring.  :o

Hopefully he was just bolting stuff to the outside, and in that case it's probably still a solid ~300hp engine. Plenty of low end torque suggests a standard cam. As you get more exotic you lose that low end in favour of high end power at the higher revs.  

You compare that sort of engine to a more modern Toyota, my ""Corolla" makes similar HP (270 at 6200), but a lot less torque, peaking at 4,700 vs 2,800 for the V8. The Toyota is actually a pain to get off the line in a hurry. It has the power to spin both wheels, but then the traction control kicks in and cuts off the power, and you sort of limp off the line. You can actually turn off the electronics with some ignition / brake code, but than you tend to sit there in a clout of smoke. 

My old Corolla was a 1600, but rated at ~170 hp, but you had to be doing 7,400 revs. Peak torque was ~6,000 revs. If you were in hurry you had to use the gears and stay up over 5,000 revs!!!

But it's hard to beat the old V8 for fun and "off the line" grunt,   8)

And yes back in the 80's we used to be laying under 70's vintage cars at the weekend, to the extent of pulling engines apart on the side of the road at 1am. Seized valve lifter and worn rocker arm in a 1970 Holden (GM Australia) Torana. 
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Offline Logger RK

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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #42 on: April 11, 2019, 07:03:00 AM »
I would check the spring that pulls the throttle back. 40 years ago I had a 69 Road Runner with a 440 that best I could figure broke while giving it The Tromp Down on a dirt road. Having posi traction didn't help in that situation. It WAS a nice Car

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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #43 on: April 22, 2019, 07:12:29 PM »
Had the mustang out and drove into town and around the lake Saturday. Tammy just shook her head when i lit the tires up out on 61.

Discovered the next issue. No gas gauge.  



 

 

 

I worked on her blazer this weekend.  I fabricated some steps so she csn get in and out easier.


 

 

 
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Offline doc henderson

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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #44 on: April 22, 2019, 09:05:20 PM »
yes... but was she smiling as she shook her head ?  
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Offline Southside

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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #45 on: April 22, 2019, 09:38:56 PM »
That is a good looking car there Jeff
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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #46 on: April 22, 2019, 09:41:43 PM »
That is a good looking car there Jeff
It really is. From 20 ft. Not bad at 15. Any cliser reveals the truth. I really see it now that ive had it out in the sun. The paint is horrible  looks garage done in a dusty garage.
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Offline bigred1951

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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #47 on: April 22, 2019, 10:11:41 PM »
I wish anything I owned looked that good at 20 feet. Mine may look almost decent on a good cloudy day on the other side of a big parking lot.

Offline Southside

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Re: mustang problem
« Reply #48 on: April 22, 2019, 11:00:54 PM »
That is a good looking car there Jeff
It really is. From 20 ft. Not bad at 15. Any cliser reveals the truth. I really see it now that ive had it out in the sun. The paint is horrible  looks garage done in a dusty garage.
Can't see any of that from 833 miles.  :D
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.


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