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Author Topic: CTL Market  (Read 6685 times)

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Offline Skeans1

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2019, 10:08:13 PM »
The tethered buncher has organized everything. I've heard word of a remote control grapple with saw but haven't seen anything in person.

https://www.summitattachments.com/summit-grapple-carriage/

 He is a small grapple setup. Something like this would be used to "pick" corners or other small volume yarding, perhaps even corridor thinning.
  Redirect Notice
 
This is a 124 madill. A bit bigger swing yarder.
  The main issues with anything that has yarder in the name is they cost lots of money to buy and maintain.
Thereís guys here that bunch piles with a tethered machine then drop a pin with the mapping software so the carriage will stop at the bunches from what I understand.
@quilbilly with the tethering now how many guys really need a tower vs something like a 5040 or 568 with drums and a grapple carriage to do most of the work now?

I think you're right. You're still going to see towers for long hard work where you need to hang a lot of line. I think tethered bunchers are going to get rid of handcutters completely. I got in an argument with my pops about tethered bunching, he's still stuck in the 70's. I think a tethered buncher followed up by a grapple off a tower will become really commonplace. Starting to already.
There will always be a place for a hand cutter but here comes the problem with the ground that will be left and the wood who is going to want to get broke in anymore? What Iím waiting for is the state to come up with some hard fast rules on how steep they can actually go hopefully before someone gets hurt or worse.


Offline Corley5

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2019, 10:22:16 PM »
A good way to go broke fast is hand cutting hardwood pulp in N. Michigan.  Especially if you're legit paying comp on the saw hand. 
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Offline kiko

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2019, 11:02:05 PM »
I feel CTL will not ever be sustainable in any marketable way in the Southeast for two main reasons.
1.  The same person responsible for beating a new skidder down in two years will be trying to run a harvester or forwarder .  I have seen it first hand.  Those that made a go at it had to import operators from the North and from Europe.  

Would that be an opportunity for operator training with some sort of manufacturer neutral  certification?   Given the current cost and complexity of equipment now I'm surprised it hasn't happened already.
Training might work, might not...
Imagine a squirt boom on processor or forwarder....


 

Offline timbco68

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2019, 11:29:49 PM »
That's actually impressive in a sad kind of way.

Offline Skeans1

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2019, 11:37:32 PM »
I feel CTL will not ever be sustainable in any marketable way in the Southeast for two main reasons.
1.  The same person responsible for beating a new skidder down in two years will be trying to run a harvester or forwarder .  I have seen it first hand.  Those that made a go at it had to import operators from the North and from Europe.  

Would that be an opportunity for operator training with some sort of manufacturer neutral  certification?   Given the current cost and complexity of equipment now I'm surprised it hasn't happened already.
Training might work, might not...
Imagine a squirt boom on processor or forwarder....

(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

Might be worth setting up the controls and locking the system like the old TJ TMC was where you set it to 50% of full speed but the operator can adjust what they think is full power when in reality itís 50% of full speed. Itís always amazing what some guys can do when paid by production as well, is that skidder in a clear cut or a thin?

Online barbender

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2019, 11:43:47 PM »
I don't know what it is down there...they just destroy stuff. I think the only way you get around it is hiring people from outside the field and training them the way you want. Ponsse told me they took a machine once out of Alabama, I don't remember if it was a repo or a trade, a couple years old and 6-8000 hours and they were PARTING IT OUT! Because it was trashed so bad! Can you imagine buying a $600K machine and destroying it in 6000 hours?
Too many irons in the fire

Offline nativewolf

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #26 on: May 01, 2019, 07:38:21 AM »
Right, I mean Ponsse new warranty program gives full coverage to 6000 hours, with an active care package you basically change oil and hoses and they do the rest.  But to kill a machine at 1/3 of normal use is crazy.  Well maintained Ponsses are going to 20k+ hours nowadays. 

I am actually hiring outside the industry.
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Online barbender

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2019, 08:27:45 AM »
We have a forwarder that is at 30k hours. One of our contract harvesters is over 30k. That machine started out down south, and got it's hardest use down there (by Captain Kirk, who you met in Alabama, Nativewolf😊). That machine used to get serviced by kiko. It's a small world, isn't it?
Too many irons in the fire

Offline nativewolf

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2019, 09:37:34 PM »
We have a forwarder that is at 30k hours. One of our contract harvesters is over 30k. That machine started out down south, and got it's hardest use down there (by Captain Kirk, who you met in Alabama, Nativewolf😊). That machine used to get serviced by kiko. It's a small world, isn't it?
The man can get some trees down but he's not gentle.  Glad to hear it is still doing well.
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Online barbender

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2019, 10:41:46 PM »
I just found out today that one of the CTL outfits (2 teams) from up here is down around Savannah, GA. My buddy talked to his old boss down there, he was trying to talk him into coming back down and cutting down there again. He said he's getting paid a premium for the bucked wood, when they were running CTL before they could barely get the mills to take their wood because they wanted it tree length.
Too many irons in the fire

Offline nativewolf

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2019, 07:45:22 AM »
Huh, that's interesting but I guess not surprising.  

The next upgrade for CTL is greater processor to mill connectivity.  Really no reason why they should not be JIT (just in time).  
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Offline Riwaka

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2019, 09:03:39 AM »
Does on processor accoustic testing happen in Lob pine? for saw log/ chip nsaw?
Might better segregate ctl logs off the feller/ processor  which is saw vs pulp.
Manual Accoustic testing of red pine.


Later system tried on a waratah.
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Offline Skeans1

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2019, 01:19:18 PM »
Huh, that's interesting but I guess not surprising.  

The next upgrade for CTL is greater processor to mill connectivity.  Really no reason why they should not be JIT (just in time).  
Just in time systems wouldnít work unless the mill systems changed at least out here with our scaling thereís no way theyíd trust a machine to scale every stick.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #33 on: May 04, 2019, 12:30:33 PM »
I drive 300-500 miles a day in TN, carolina and a touch of Nga.  See about 20 loads of tree length pine to 1 load of bucked HW on average. Have passed plenty of equipment dealers, tons of mills and tons of clearcuts.  I have never seen a CTL machine in the southeast.  Not on a job, not on a trailer or on a dealer lot.  Theres probably 5 new knucklebooms over at delks right now.  

The south .. Atleast where the trees are, is predominantly rural.  Rural people see land as a thing that produces either a crop or a subdivision, and we hate subdivisions, its where the invaders live.  So whether its a crop of beans, wheat, corn, hay, beef or lumber..  We dont really care.. They all have a look of their own that is just part of the natural world, stumps and slash included.  We are not preconditioned to think of a clearcut as ugly or to think of undeveloped land as requiring a tidy parking lot with sidewalks and mulched retaining wall hardscapes like urban regions are all going to.

Roll down the west side of durham NC on apex hwy [55] and there is not a native planting in sight.  Every spec of material there, from the fill dirt to the luxury apartments that are being built one ontop the other, came on a truck.  Those people demand beauty at any cost, but they dont have land to sell a crop off of. 

Head southwest on 73 toward pinehurst or wadesboro or mt gilead and youll see miles of land around the singlewides.  The pine harvest slash will end 5 feet from a bedroom window.  These people have land.  They care about dollars per acre on that crop and thats that.  Is ctl gonna bump up the profit?  No?  Sorry, my cousins hotsaw crew will be here tuesday.  

If one wants to be a CTL in the south its gonna be swimming upstream.  Youll need to leave the region to find it, fix it yourself, run it yourself and make less than the other crews pouring a pail of 303 per day into a 1992 prentice hooked to a 5ton that havent had a payment on them in decades.  The crew makes $13/hr on a 1099, fixes the stuff themselves and slams out truck after truck after truck 6 days a week.   Can you compete against them?   Not without someone elses money i reckon.  Yes theyre hillbilly rednecks doing it all wrong, but you wont believe how much footage they put up with fence wire and hoseclamps.

Can they work all year?  Not unless deer season gets cancelled.
Revelation 3:20

Offline RT roosting

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #34 on: May 13, 2019, 05:44:27 PM »
I feel CTL will not ever be sustainable in any marketable way in the Southeast for two main reasons.

I will admit I have no experience in CTL, but I have wondered if a CTL combi/dual machine would work well in the South on small woodlots 5-15 acres, stream corridor thinnings, possibly steeper sloped areas, etc...    

These are higher cost harvest types, but the combi machine would actually benefit you in these instances as moving costs would be less with just one machine and on corridor harvests the skid distances wouldn't be as much of a factor.  I would think it also would work well for cleanup after larger high production crews when they get rained out with small acreage left.

I could be wrong, but it would seem like if you could get 4 loads per day with one machine in these type stands (cutting 12-20" pine most of the time) it would work, but I don't know if that is reasonable.  I have had this thought in the back of my head for a few years after seeing a few try second thinning down here and fight a slow death.  Just felt like it wasn't the right application, too much low value pulpwood with lots of processing to justify the precision equipment.   

Online barbender

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #35 on: May 13, 2019, 11:45:27 PM »
RT, the combi machines are typically only suited to smaller wood. You're hanging a harvester head off of a forwarder crane, so the capacity is pretty limited. They are out there though. 
    I just heard of a crew from up here, that went down with 2 Ponsse CTL crews to Georgia cutting predominantly pine. A little birdie told me a lot of the things that were fighting previous CTL efforts, are coming around to where it's not an uphill fight. There's a logger down there that's been in the game for a long time, that's thinking it's time for a CTL crew. He'll likely import an operation from somewhere else though.
Too many irons in the fire

Offline WDH

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2019, 07:42:35 AM »
Interfor, which is the largest lumber producer in Georgia at close to a billion bf/year at seven mills has converted all the mills to cut to length.  Most loggers still use the traditional tree-length equipment but use ground saws to cut the logs to the multiple lengths.  Everything is skidded tree length to the landing and then the logs are de-limbed, topped, and cut to multiple lengths with the groundsaw.
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Offline RT roosting

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #37 on: May 14, 2019, 10:17:41 AM »
RT, the combi machines are typically only suited to smaller wood. You're hanging a harvester head off of a forwarder crane, so the capacity is pretty limited. They are out there though.
    I just heard of a crew from up here, that went down with 2 Ponsse CTL crews to Georgia cutting predominantly pine. A little birdie told me a lot of the things that were fighting previous CTL efforts, are coming around to where it's not an uphill fight. There's a logger down there that's been in the game for a long time, that's thinking it's time for a CTL crew. He'll likely import an operation from somewhere else though.
Thanks barbender, I hadn't thought about the difference in size of combi machines.  It's a shame as I felt there might be a good fit to use one for specialized logging down here.  
I think more mills will shift to cut to length going forward.  Historically the mills owned the land and mills throughout the South, and as such they designed mills to maximize production from the land base all the way through to market.  Since most of the mills are now independent of the land, Weyerhaeuser being the exception, I think the trend will increase especially considering there is an oversupply of logs so they don't have to push for everything.   

Offline chevytaHOE5674

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #38 on: May 14, 2019, 10:23:27 AM »
You can get a timber pro combo machine and run a respectable size head (logmax 7000 size or equilivant) on it and cut just about anything you could want with a machine.

If I was ever crazy enough to get back into the woods biz that is the route I would go.

Online barbender

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #39 on: May 14, 2019, 10:48:05 AM »
Chevy, I always forget about the Timberpro machines- their cranes are completely capable as either a forwarder or harvester. But they are big, and who knows where things will end up with Komatsu buying them out.
  RT, another thing- cleaning up around the margins and such is a good way to go broke. One problem my buddy had when he was cutting with his Ponsse down there in GA, was that many of the foresters only wanted to use him for exactly the situations you describe. The conventional crews would cut all the high production/easy access wood, and he'd get to cut the difficult terrain, near houses, etc. Production was poor, and he finally came back north. If you could get a good enough harvesting rate, you could make it work but it's tough.
Too many irons in the fire


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