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Author Topic: CTL Market  (Read 6480 times)

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Offline barbender

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #60 on: June 22, 2019, 09:06:17 PM »
I saw that too- I don't really consider that "CTL" myself when it's just a processor working on the landing. I don't doubt it works for them, but why wouldn't a pull through and a deck saw work the same?
Too many irons in the fire

Offline nativewolf

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #61 on: June 22, 2019, 09:14:46 PM »
The mill owner is requiring all logs are processed, ie cut with a processor head instead of a bucksaw.  
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Offline Skeans1

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #62 on: June 22, 2019, 09:32:33 PM »
I saw that too- I don't really consider that "CTL" myself when it's just a processor working on the landing. I don't doubt it works for them, but why wouldn't a pull through and a deck saw work the same?
Itís no different then up here speed, size of the landing, and you have another machine that can load or shovel turns out with. 

Offline barbender

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #63 on: June 22, 2019, 11:28:21 PM »
NW, hypothetical question here- if it meets specs how can they tell the difference? I get if they're cutting company properties they can have equipment requirements or preferences, but on open market wood if the length, diameter and sweep are good and limbs trimmed flush, how can they turn it away? "We need to see some feed roller marks on these?"😊 I know there's treelength crews in middle Georgia that are shipping wood that they are hand bucking with a tape and a chainsaw. One fellow would like to get a CTL contract crew down there again, he thinks things are finally in place for it to take off. Maybe the roadside processor will be the answer for down there, they are definitely more gorilla proof. 
  I don't know if you saw the Timberline magazine article, I think it was this winter, that featured Grand Marais, MN logger Stan Nelson. He was running 2 Ponsse Scorpion Kings and an Elephant and Buffalo forwarders. He packed up this winter and headed to near Savannah, GA to cut for one of the mills down there. We'll see how it works out. It helps us up here- the markets suck and everyone that bags up or leaves helps the rest of us out😁
Too many irons in the fire

Offline Riwaka

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #64 on: June 28, 2019, 06:21:28 PM »
I don't know if this was posted earlier on here? ponsse simulator for log cutting at the stump etc


At the moment the machine operator training is training for a specific machine. 
The John Deere simulator that does the JD wheeled harvester/ forwarder functions is around us$80K . The JD tracked loaders and wheeled/ tracked feller buncher simulators were mentioned the other day and there is a waratah simulator too.

Jussi the Ponsse trainer and the Ponsse  simulator.

Offline nativewolf

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #65 on: June 28, 2019, 07:18:18 PM »
NW, hypothetical question here- if it meets specs how can they tell the difference? I get if they're cutting company properties they can have equipment requirements or preferences, but on open market wood if the length, diameter and sweep are good and limbs trimmed flush, how can they turn it away? "We need to see some feed roller marks on these?"😊 I know there's treelength crews in middle Georgia that are shipping wood that they are hand bucking with a tape and a chainsaw. One fellow would like to get a CTL contract crew down there again, he thinks things are finally in place for it to take off. Maybe the roadside processor will be the answer for down there, they are definitely more gorilla proof.
  I don't know if you saw the Timberline magazine article, I think it was this winter, that featured Grand Marais, MN logger Stan Nelson. He was running 2 Ponsse Scorpion Kings and an Elephant and Buffalo forwarders. He packed up this winter and headed to near Savannah, GA to cut for one of the mills down there. We'll see how it works out. It helps us up here- the markets suck and everyone that bags up or leaves helps the rest of us out😁
I assume that the precision on the top cut and log length is a tell tale sign but more telling would be not having one on landing and mill buyer inspecting landing and it is in your contract.  Mostly though, I would think (you tell me) that it would show on the specific precision of the cut lengths and diameters.  
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Offline barbender

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #66 on: June 29, 2019, 01:02:43 AM »
NW, I guess the point I was trying to make, and perhaps more of a question, is whether they are demanding it is run through a processor? The sense I get from the guys in GA is that the mills want it cut to length now. Maybe a better term would be "bucked"? From what I understand, they want it pre-bucked now. Most stuff in GA was tree length previously, now the mills are looking for logs pre-bucked to their specs, and they must not care about how it's done- as I mentioned prior the one crew is hand bucking.
Too many irons in the fire

Offline nativewolf

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #67 on: June 29, 2019, 06:50:50 AM »
NW, I guess the point I was trying to make, and perhaps more of a question, is whether they are demanding it is run through a processor? The sense I get from the guys in GA is that the mills want it cut to length now. Maybe a better term would be "bucked"? From what I understand, they want it pre-bucked now. Most stuff in GA was tree length previously, now the mills are looking for logs pre-bucked to their specs, and they must not care about how it's done- as I mentioned prior the one crew is hand bucking.
Oh gotch...could be.  The mill spec changes constantly though...I don't know I thought it was also no more pull through delimbers?  And @kiko might know better...did they require a processor or not?  
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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #68 on: June 29, 2019, 08:22:26 AM »
There is Company in Georgia, a Canadian company, Interfor, that owns and operates seven sawmills.  They require that all logs be cut to pre-set multiples.  The way that they are bucked to length does not matter.  Some loggers have gone to processors, others use ground saws.  When I had timber cut last year, The logger had a ground saw which is a chainsaw bar operated tremotely by the loader operator.  The determine the pre-set lengths, they pounded t-posts in the ground so they they could pull the butt even with the proper t-post and buck the log with the ground saw. 

In 2016, I had a tract of 30 year-old planted pine clearcut.  The process was to fell the trees with a feller buncher, skid to the landing with one grapple skidder, de-limb and cut to length with a processor, and load the trucks with a knuckleboom loader.  This crew was getting 14 loads per day with this set up. 

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Offline Skeans1

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #69 on: June 29, 2019, 08:36:41 AM »
I think one more thing need to be cleared up there CTL or Cut To Length which is an in the woods process of falling the truck, limbing and then bucking the log at the stump. There is also Tree Length yarding with road side processing which is a very common process, most have a processor sitting back behind the sort piles limbing the trees through well bucking/sorting the logs.

Offline nativewolf

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #70 on: June 29, 2019, 08:53:27 AM »
@Skeans1 Absolutely right, sorry to confuse anyone.  I am just watching trends and this addition of processing heads on the landing is different (for the south) and could make it easier for someone to market wood cut via a CTL process.  So absolutely right that this is not CTL ...just using some of the same technology in the process on the landing only.  
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Offline Skeans1

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #71 on: June 29, 2019, 09:13:11 AM »
@nativewolf 
Possibly but less likely unless youíre going to be doing lengths like we do on the forwarders and if the land owner wants all that slash left like that personally I wouldnít unless itís a thinning.

Offline Riwaka

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #72 on: June 30, 2019, 04:59:31 AM »
Rayonier that operates in a few places (HQ-Atlanta) are looking at volume 'scaling' rather than weight of logs over a weighbridge.

The processor allows for near continuous diameter measurements down the stem. If the volume of the log is 'measured' and the individual log identified and then the sum of the individual volumes of the logs put on the truck, you can tell the mill accurately what volume is headed their way.
The truck does not need to go over the weighbridge (so often?)

Accurate volume of wood fibre might be a better than weights that vary with mud and moisture levels etc. 



Offline kiko

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #73 on: July 01, 2019, 08:15:06 PM »
I know I am a pessimist about this whole CTL or stationary processing. With out more pay for the logger per ton it is unaffordable in this market, with this labor pool, and proprietary software.  This idea for calculating volume at the landing... when there is a CAN failure between the many modules to bring this
data from the joystick buttons to the mill office the cost of maintenance and repair will fall on the logger; just to have the right to sell a product that they cannot demand their price. Everybody down the chain makes money until the logger, and he makes just enough to pay the bills,sometimes, unless he has quota and inventory. Commercial chicken farming is the same game.  You can refuse a price on your cows. 

Offline nativewolf

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #74 on: July 02, 2019, 07:52:43 AM »
@kiko That is actually how I feel about most logging, CTL or Whole Tree.  I think most guys in south harvesting for big mills are little more than slaves.  They need to wise up and unionize or leave logging or something.  Most of the loggers have tremendous debts and having spent several months with various bankers it was the universal feeling that if I was opening a sawmill they were much more interested, because sawmills have done well in the bankers eyes. Loggers...not so much.  I suppose free market will take care of this in the long wrong but the free market is pretty brutal in that process, families are ruined in a business so centered around small family operations.
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Offline Skeans1

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #75 on: July 02, 2019, 08:21:40 AM »
Just curious whatís the difference between the south and the NW?

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #76 on: July 02, 2019, 08:39:05 AM »
Mainly terrain.  Most of the South is relatively flat where 99% of the time wood can be skidded tree length with grapple skidders to a landing.  A good bit of the Pacific NW has much steeper ground. 
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Offline Skeans1

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #77 on: July 02, 2019, 08:53:20 AM »
@WDH
The terrain is different yes but almost all of it is done mechanical tree length to a landing on clear cuts. We have quotas, thereís no guarantees and we have the labor issues as well I guess what Iím getting at is what is the big difference we all have the same issues to deal with but the big difference I see from the outside looking in is theyíre unwilling to learn a new kind of logging.

Offline Southside

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #78 on: July 02, 2019, 09:11:40 AM »
They need to wise up and unionize


That was sorta tried in far northern Maine, late '90's maybe it was early 2000's.  Never got off the ground and it didn't look like it would have been a solution anyway.  There is a new push to try that again, but it's mostly politically driven, and knowing who is doing the driving it won't benefit those who would need it the most.  
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #79 on: July 02, 2019, 09:15:08 AM »
Just curious whatís the difference between the south and the NW?
Culture and cost. 
Exactly what kiko said. Going CTL to please a mill is just like lease purchase on a tractor.  JB Hunt or swift or whoever can buy the trucks by the dozen and write them off, but theyd rather trick you into buying it and running it exclusively for them so that they can move their lowest freight on forced dispatch schedules, keeping the shipper happy... And also relieve themselves of the risk of machinery trouble, labor trouble, market trouble, whatever.  You sign the equipment purchase, youre doing whatever the finance man says until the repo man takes the burden off your shoulders or you pay it off.  Whether there is any spread left for you is irrelevant to the bosses. And it aint you when youre buried in debt. 
Revelation 3:20


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