CTL Market

[nativewolf]

We've had a few discussions on the topic of Cut-to-Length machines and I thought I'd start a thread to discuss some of the trends.  

Just painting a picture:  Sort of three harvesting methods competing in the US.  Whole tree- Feller buncher, skidder, slasher/loader.  Shovel Logging- feller, excavator, processors, and CTL- processor & forwarder.  

• We've seen a giant contraction in the number of manufacturers of skidders, down to Tigercat and JohnDeere for the most part- which is odd because there are more feller buncher manufactures than skidder manufacturers.  I have heard that the total skidder sales volume was less than 1000 units in the US in 2018- despite a steady timber market.  If the global market is moving away from skidders I could see it being an every more niche market with support challenges and lack of innovation.  
• Shovel logging, started in PNW, is moving into the south instead of CTL and I find that interesting as well.  Shovel logging often still uses a processor on the landing so that is a real difference for some loggers-in the environmentally challenging coastal plain shovel logging may be a winner in large plantation clearcuts. Shovel logging obviously would not work in thinning, it's a clearcut process so something to watch if it gains more market share.  It would mean a bifurcation of harvesting teams, has this already happened in the PNW.  @Skeans1 and others might jump it
• Globally the CTL market seems to be booming; Ponsse sold 300 units in Russia alone last year.  That's a combination of Forwarders and Harvesters.  If Ponsse is selling that many than JD and Komatsu are likely very close.  That would put the Russian market at nearly 1000 units by itself.  Virtually no skidders being sold there anymore from what I hear.  

CTL tidbits in no particular order:

Another note on processors.  I hear that some mills in the south are now requiring that their loggers have processors on the landing which I think may hasten some change.  

Locally and very relevant to me: Tigercat dealer was unable to show me a forwarder in person, turns out there are 2 new tigercat forwarders in the US and one was made in 2018.  Seems to me that Tigercat is having trouble figuring out a market placement.  They have some great tracked harvester machines but boggie driven harvesters and forwarders seem to challenge them.  The manager in the local dealer was great, very responsive.  Just clear that CTL was not something they have experience or backing to support.

Komatsu, JD, Ponsse are the clear 123 in Europe and the NA markets, just depends on location to determine rank.  Even in Finland JD still gets a nice chunk of the market share (behind Ponsse) which I find interesting.  Here in NA Ponsse has a very strong resale value but is hampered by the lack of equipment financing (ask me how I know  ) and high initial prices. In the south things are different: JD and Komatsu have the financing but dealer support is still lacking they appear to do well in the PNW where dealers offer better support.  Ponsse mobile support teams might be an option for JD and Komatsu and give loggers the comfort to know they will not be stranded with millions of dollars in equipment in the field.  

[Wudman]

The biggest strike against cut to length operations in the Southeast are the mills that they would have to feed.  The modern pine mills in the southeast are set up to accept tree length material, computer optimize on the in-feed deck and cut to (optimized) length.  Across much of the south, the distinction between "chip and saw (small log material) and larger sawtimber has blurred.  That material is not separated in the woods, but it is sorted to the optimal saw line at the mill.  Without that in-woods merchandising, CTL loses any advantages.  In areas that still has multiple log sorts, CTL could still be competitive.

Years ago, I attempted to set up a CTL crew to operate in a second thinning (pine plantation) environment.  We were looking at merchandising on the small log sort.  I never was able to make it fly.  Before that, back in the mid 80s, we were playing with some of the smaller scale Scandinavian processors (Bobcat sized machines) merchandising 10 foot wood onto railcars.  The machines were not rugged enough to do what we were attempting and they were down more than operating.  The loss of that short wood market put an end to that venture. 

In a Southern U.S. venture, the next strike against CTL is cost.  A typical sawhead, 2 skidder, loader with pull through delimber and groundsaw will run circles around a cut to length operation on both production and cost.  We demoed a processor on one of our high production pine crews.  Looking at output from that machine, versus our conventional operation, we couldn't justify the cost.  We found out that we had a pretty DANG good loader operator that it was competing against.  This was in two thin plantation wood, so the only separation was some topwood. 

Wudman  

[barbender]

One plus for CTL in the SE is a Canadian mill bought a bunch of pine mills down there, and they are demanding CTL wood. That's why you're seeing more of the roadside processors.

[Southside]

Processor on the landing I can see working well, but CTL makes no sense in a plantation pine clear cut, just never keep up with a buncher and monster grapple skidder.  

[timbco68]

the biggest strike against CTL is cost per ton I believe. If all you are producing is basically pulpwood, you can never overcome the added cost of such expensive and complicated machinery vs. hotsaws and big grapple skidders. If you can merchandise the heck out of your product and gain added value, you might have a bit of a chance. Europe is not America and I have seen some production figures on their pine 1st thinnings. They might have 2 guys running state of the art CTL where over here one man could produce the same numbers with old iron and you would have starved to death long ago. That being said, there is more and more CTL around. I believe once you scratch a little deeper you will find that quite a few of the guys that run it get a better price per ton from the big mills. Remember its not what IS always better, it's what is PERCEIVED as better for FSC or whatever supposedly green certification you want. I ran timbco one summer for a guy that had 3 conventional crews and 2 CTL. He ended up getting rid of the CTL because it's cost was 10$ per cord more than the conventional operation.

[barbender]

Some mills used to pay a premium for CTL wood, UPM Blandin most notably. But things keep tightening up and that has went away, from what I understand. You can't just use cost per ton when you're comparing CTL and conventional equipment. There's a lot more to the story. First off, up in our country our CTL machines rarely get shut down due to weather. The forwarders more often than the harvesters obviously, but we can basically work year round whereas conventional equipment runs 7-8 months in a really good year. So ones out making money while the other has 5 pieces in the yard costing. I certainly agree that on a big clearcut, a conventional crew will bury a CTL outfit. One other thing that the south has a hard time figuring out, is that a CTL thinned pine stand tends to have higher residual value because there is less damage to the trees in the stand. Plywood logs can't have catfaces in them, can they? A lot of agencies up here have "ctl only" on their pine thin contracts for this reason. There's certainly a place for both systems, but the south could stand to open their minds up and see the benefits of ctl for pine thinning, IMO

[Ken]

CTL has certainly become the dominant system here on the east coast of Canada.  Full tree systems were prominent until about 10 years ago.    Due to the fact that many of our woodlots, industrial lands and crown owned forests have not had effective management over the past few decades another increasingly common harvest method is to have a buncher go ahead of the harvester.  Seems to work really well in the crappy stands as the harvester can now spend time processing as opposed to cutting small unmerchantable stems out of the way.  I'll find out first hand starting tomorrow as we have added a buncher to the crew.

[Riwaka]

The US south will be cost efficient logging systems with the pine over supply?

There Are So Many Forests In Southern US That It?s Wrecking Timber Prices | The Daily Caller

Ponsse sent a few bit of machinery to Florida for the hurricane cleanup
Ponsse in Florida
Jamie Flannery Interview- Washington County, Florida Hurricane Michael Debris Removal - YouTube

Skidders - weiler will be in the north american market sometime.
There are a number of European 'skidder' makers
Russia with the trade restrictions - buy non-nato where possible.
noe-forstmaschinen | NF210-4R  (Germany)
HSM, Welte, Camoux, Irum    Haas Timberhawk (timberjack 240 evolution)

Tigercat is still developing their rubber tire machines. They have a mid sized harvester in development to join the 1135 and 1185.  (Quebec - 1085 forwarder/ clambunk 8x8, self loading etc to pull full length trees with on soft ground)

Tigercat - Australia tracked-processors felling and forwarders (clear cut pine)



After the forwarder has left the saw logs in a stack. The self loader truck - dry roads so not likely to get stuck.

[kiko]

I feel CTL will not ever be sustainable in any marketable way in the Southeast for two main reasons.
1.  The same person responsible for beating a new skidder down in two years will be trying to run a harvester or forwarder .  I have seen it first hand.  Those that made a go at it had to import operators from the North and from Europe.  
2. It is in the mills best interest to buy raw materials for a cheap as possible. Some of those that have made the jump to a processor have not received any increase in per pay, except on a per tract basis.  The  Canadian mills cornering the local market is not so they can increase cost of raw materials by paying more for the product because you use a electronic measurement device.  A log tape is just as accurate and cheaper to boot.

[quilbilly]

Out here, pnw, we thin with ctl both tracked and wheeled. Small gypos will thin with an old cable skidder which in my opinion can still do an admirable job, but that is getting less and less.
 Shovel logging is soft on the soil and fast, as long as you're less than 5 swings from the landing start getting more than that and you lose advantages over a grapple skidder. More guys are doing it for the lack of ruts and state of WA rules. I know a number though that wish the bosses hadn't gotten rid of the skidders.
  Tethering is getting to be a big deal out here and you didn't mention tower logging either. No one uses a slasher delimber combo out here, at least not new. We have an old setup like that and with our type of wood a three man skidder, loader, processor crew will just make a setup like mine look silly.

[Skeans1]

@nativewolf Shovel logging here is done differently then even down in the south, everything here has a tread of being big 300 sized shovels is pretty common. The big bonus is you’re making less trips on the ground well swinging but you do need more roads to handle the volume coming out as well as make it efficient. CTL is mainly a thinning practice out here with either a track skidder or a forwarder mainly long log thins are done anymore because of mills not wanting shorter wood lengths. We were told Deere had that many units going to Russia as well but was a year out on a new set because of Russia and South American demand. There’s at least one of those big boy Tigercats cutting up here on a line and there’s a forwarder around they had at the OLC this year it’s a big girl just like the harvester, but we did like the way stuff is laid out for future improvements like running on a line for long logs.
@Wudman I’ve been around the big outfits out here some with a single processor they could do north of 50 loads a day if the mills and trucks could handle a good processor operator can move fast plus the sorting as well as the brush piling is already done.

[Skeans1]

@quilbilly with the tethering now how many guys really need a tower vs something like a 5040 or 568 with drums and a grapple carriage to do most of the work now?

[quilbilly]

@quilbilly with the tethering now how many guys really need a tower vs something like a 5040 or 568 with drums and a grapple carriage to do most of the work now?

I think you're right. You're still going to see towers for long hard work where you need to hang a lot of line. I think tethered bunchers are going to get rid of handcutters completely. I got in an argument with my pops about tethered bunching, he's still stuck in the 70's. I think a tethered buncher followed up by a grapple off a tower will become really commonplace. Starting to already.

[chevytaHOE5674]

Conventional long wood crews are a dieing breed UP here. 90% of our logging is hardwood thinnings and 90% of that is state/fed/TIMO ground and they have restrictions on how long of wood you can ground skid, slash utilization, rutting, landing size etc. Many contracts with the state stipulate max length of between 17 and 26 foot for skidded wood, that means long wood guys need to buck to length in the woods. Also many contracts stipulate tracked equipment so that kicks out most skidder crews. Generally CTL crews driving on a slash mat do less soil damage that a grapple skidder. Landowners like that when things are all done there is basically no landings on a CTL operation as they just deck logs roadside without need for a large opening.

Only buncher/skidder/slasher crews left are doing clearcuts of low grade wood because that is about all they are they are able to cut due to contract stipulations.

[nativewolf]

@chevytaHOE5674 That's good insight.  Makes more sense of market direction up there in MI.

@quilbilly I completely left off the tethering but yeah, that is key trend.  When synchro tethers are standard options of harvesters you know that the demand is there.  So when you say hanging a grapple off a tower?  You mean you have an automated grapple that can be remote controlled because the feller has organized all the material in a straight line for yarding system?  We're just not steep enough here in VA to really see much grapple work.

@skeans1 I had not heard of the demand for CTL in south america but it does not surprise me either, similar to russia.  Roads logistics can be very challenging.

[Claybraker]

I feel CTL will not ever be sustainable in any marketable way in the Southeast for two main reasons.
1.  The same person responsible for beating a new skidder down in two years will be trying to run a harvester or forwarder .  I have seen it first hand.  Those that made a go at it had to import operators from the North and from Europe.  

Would that be an opportunity for operator training with some sort of manufacturer neutral  certification?   Given the current cost and complexity of equipment now I'm surprised it hasn't happened already.

[quilbilly]

The tethered buncher has organized everything. I've heard word of a remote control grapple with saw but haven't seen anything in person.

https://www.summitattachments.com/summit-grapple-carriage/

 He is a small grapple setup. Something like this would be used to "pick" corners or other small volume yarding, perhaps even corridor thinning.
  Redirect Notice
 
This is a 124 madill. A bit bigger swing yarder.
  The main issues with anything that has yarder in the name is they cost lots of money to buy and maintain.

[snowstorm]

some body must think ctl works by the looks of all the new gear in bangor. deere has a lot of new gear valmet has several new machines. dont know about ponsse havnt been over there in a while

[Riwaka]

Valmet? - do those machines with the red paint have a Komatsu sticker somewhere on them anywhere?

System for heading towards tower semi-autonomous operation  (dc equipment electronic control system)
google keywords dc equipment,  falcon 171, autonomous control

iLog system for swing yarders (not showing up on google yet) shaws (nz) point of contact.

Felling carriage - closer to production, but still be a development category. Not really in the forest operation handbooks/ rule books yet.
The Future Is Now: Falcon Felling Carriage Prototype

[snowstorm]

valmet is easier to spell than komatsu