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Author Topic: CTL Market  (Read 6669 times)

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Offline Skeans1

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #100 on: July 03, 2019, 03:06:34 PM »
@kiko
Didnít know if the guys had adopted them for loading use since you can travel between decks without having to hook up to the trailer. 

Offline mike_belben

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #101 on: July 24, 2019, 02:12:24 PM »
NC109 thru uwharrie national forest from troy, to mt gilead to wadesboro is a plantation pine economy.  Jordan lumber is an impressive mill.  I stopped counting at 20 trucks, ill bet 40 passed by headed to jordan.  Right next door is the mohawk plywood plant.  Down the street is mcrae treating and megawood.  Other direction is troy lumber company.  These are THE employers.  The rest service them. If they die the region will too.  

The whole area is planted pine, every acre that isnt a house, cornfield or cottonfield which are all in the minority to pine crop. 


Every truck was tree length.  Jordan picks them from a cantilever mega crane whole truckload and places in the sprinkler circle.  James river equipment is the machinery dealer in mt gilead on 109.  Their small lot is jam packed with knucklebooms, grapple skidders and bunchers.  I have seen zero evidence of CTL in practice, and no indication that there is any reason whatsoever to change what seems to be functioning like a rolex.  Nobody was standing around looking for a pill or bumming smokes.  Theyre all pretty busy being employed and the entire area i think is just fantastic.  It spits out pine like a vending machine. 

Im mostly just ribbing skeans  ;D
Revelation 3:20

Offline nativewolf

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #102 on: July 24, 2019, 04:31:02 PM »
It's me you're poking fun at :).  Not our man @Skeans1 -he is a healthy skeptic, wish he was closer!

When I see those operations I see a bunch of mills making some $ and loggers and landowners getting shafted.  All I want is 4 loads of logs a day at $2k a day in profit per truck.  That's all.  Not asking much.  

But you be sure to plan some trip so you have a rest break in Winchester or Toms Brook.  I'll show you some trees, none of that whole tree junk :).
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Offline Riwaka

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #103 on: July 24, 2019, 06:07:34 PM »
That north carolina operation looks like bean poles.
Probably reduce the number of trucks if the truck weight could be doubled/ tripled etc with big trailers. Lots of trucks just = low load weights. 

They do 'cut to length' but inside the mill. A bit quicker than a processing head.

Cut to length inside the mill


Jordan mill drone overflight


There is another vid of the debarker, laser and previous? gen gang saw setup.  

I read that a fair area of crop pine on the flat ground nearer the Eastern part of NC is being converted  back to farm land again due to low returns.

Offline nativewolf

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #104 on: July 24, 2019, 06:13:27 PM »
Wouldn't surprise me at all if they converted back to cukes or other truck farming, lots of stuff in fact now that Charlotte has sprawled, RDU has sprawled, etc.  More demand for good local food and with the hits the coast takes from hurricanes row crops offer some protection , at least you are in your second crop by Hurricane season.  I think the counter to that from Foresters perspective would be to plant LL Pine as far north as you can, rake, and send to DC for mulch.  You could get top $$$$ for good pine straw in DC area.  
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Online Southside

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #105 on: July 24, 2019, 06:31:35 PM »
At least with tree length you can ship pine like that pulp and all in one shot (chip n saw). Guy I buy grade pine from was here yesterday when his phone got a text. Basically said the mill will only take pulp next Monday starting at midnight for one day. Have to factor that into the equation too. 
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #106 on: July 24, 2019, 08:20:48 PM »
Wow, 24 hours to ship pulp.  They are pitting all the poor loggers and landowners against each other.  I bet they are not getting much for the pulp either.  
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Online Southside

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #107 on: July 24, 2019, 08:28:13 PM »
I didn't ask, but I am sure it's nothing. Same thing with chips, so why bother to own a chipper? 
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #108 on: July 24, 2019, 08:37:27 PM »
I didn't ask, but I am sure it's nothing. Same thing with chips, so why bother to own a chipper?
I hear you!
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #109 on: July 24, 2019, 09:46:01 PM »
When I see those operations I see a bunch of mills making some $ and loggers and landowners getting shafted.  
I guess i see it different.  
Old bell, hydroax or barko feller, $30-60k
Simple old skidder $30k
Simple old knuckleboom $20k
Backroads daycab tractor $12k
Pitts trailer $12k
I see all this stuff for sale here all the time.  A CTL processor and a forwarder.. Cant even price em.  Never ever see them hit the paper or on the lot at ANY equipment place i pass.  Im guessing a $100k CTL rig is pretty clapped out but i dont know.  That still leaves a forwarder.. 50k?  Still need truck and trailer.   
I guess i think the conventional logger on 109 is making more than the CTL one because, well.. I do a lot of observing and thinking to pass the miles, and they all appear to have stayed conventional wherever i pass by.   ???
What does @kiko think?   Is there much CTL gear available in GA?  I see so much logging from kentucky to carolina and no CTL.  
Revelation 3:20

Offline kiko

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #110 on: July 24, 2019, 10:21:30 PM »
Basically non excistant here, a small percentage of stationery processing. Either is a race to the bottom.  Not my words but, it takes more courage to shut it down than it does to continue to operate at a loss.  The wood is not worth or uniform enough in single tracts for CTL/processing to be productive or feasible.  If I had a cool million to blow I could find much better and funner ways to dispose of that knot.  "I spend most of my money on whisky and women and wasted the rest if it." ...  

Offline kiko

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #111 on: July 24, 2019, 10:24:19 PM »
And another I can claim,  The wood does not give a DanG what the grapple looks like. 

Offline nativewolf

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #112 on: July 24, 2019, 10:29:05 PM »
Oh well, I am in agreement as far as pine goes.  I am no fan of industrial pine plantations- economic returns for landowner or logger are slim to none.   This is in the SE, Coastal OR and WA may be a a different story.

I'm interested in CTL to replicate handfelling in hardwood stands.  Long story...we'll see.

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Offline quilbilly

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #113 on: July 24, 2019, 11:41:08 PM »
I think the reason you don't see ctl is because of the way Mills are set up. As a logger, you're pretty much at the mercy of what the mill wants.
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #114 on: July 25, 2019, 07:01:36 AM »
I suppose thats true but i never met a logger who said i wish i had a much much more expensive operation with electronic equipment that i dont know how to repair.  


Didnt yellowhammer or wdh do quite well on his pine plantation?  I remember asking if it was profitable.   This stretch of 109 i am describing on purpose because it is a real place rather than a myth, you can all look at the same area or someone on here may know the details to say its good or bad over there.   if conventional is so terrible it sure has me fooled.   If pine is paying bad for the loggers and landowners, why so many log crews and happy drivers on the CB with me all day?  Why so many pine crops and not a big ol south PA looking cornfield?    I know disgruntled drivers and i know when im seeing another round of pine being planted where the last cut was done.  It cant be that bad or economics would change it.  Id see root rakes and land conversions. 


  I suspect a pine crop pays a lot better for actual farmers than absentee owners who pay a premium to avoid the labor.  Speaking of labor, ive never seen a crew racing to beat the rain all summer with their equipment at a pine plantation, like with hay or food production. It looks like less intense work to me.
Revelation 3:20

Offline WDH

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #115 on: July 25, 2019, 07:41:59 AM »
Cut to length in the woods is more expensive to operate than conventional Southern tree length logging in this area.  Unless the mills are set up for it or require it down here, CTL loggers would be at a disadvantage.  What we do see is cut to multiples where the logs are felled with a fellerbuncher and bunched, skiddded to the landing with grapple skidders, cut to multiple pre-set lengths on the log deck, and loaded and hauled mostly in long log form.  The largest lumber producer in Georgia with close to 1 billion bf of annual production requires that all logs be pre-cut to specified lengths, i.e. 25', 33' 41',49', 57' etc.  It is all about economics.
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #116 on: July 25, 2019, 08:34:32 AM »
The uwarahie national forest area exists because during the depression it was virtually abandoned, miles and miles of super eroded farmland.  I, and many other NC State foresters, did our student projects there.  In the 30's many areas around there looked like the moon.  It's not very productive cropland, labor is tight (right in between Raleigh and Charlotte), and the alternative in that area is often chicken farming.  It's not the place you would want to plant corn (site index is often around 50-80 for pine- which is not so great),we grow 80' Black Cherry in 25 years in the right conditions here in N VA.   The state and feds subsidized a lot of pine planting in that area, it was a great decision and even a libertarian fiscal tightwad like me thinks that's the sort of place you want to have in trees and not crops and that it was money well spent and not wasted.  So, there are lots of trees and there are a handful of producers and a train to ship chips and a State govt very much at the forefront of Industrial Pine production (google up Bruce Zoebel -I was lucky enough to have had time with him).  Just don't do an economic analysis of owning that land because it would tell you to sell ASAP and buy on the next dip in the stock market.  Pine in this area are probably growing 25% as fast as those on Danny's site (old memory here and I may be far underestimating how much better he is), this isn't even taking into account soils.  

WDH did post his numbers on there, he is in a thriving pine production area.  Essentially if you are going to make a go of it in pine you want to be in GA between Macon and Athens or in a belt from MS over to GA.  You want to be where you have the most diverse group of buyers, the lowest logging costs (sucks to be us), and the most sunlight and consistent temps.  GA is such a place.  The further you get from middle GA/middle AL the slower the pines grow, the fewer buyers, and the lower the returns for landowners.   If you are a landowner that really believes in pine you'd sell the VA/NC sites and buy middle GA.

Of course this is a discussion on Pine, not CTL.  I'm not a fan of industrial pine production- I believe it is far over planted, profits accumulate with a few big mill owners, disease and pest will develop endangering all southern yellow pines, and that in a rapidly evolving market you are locking yourself into a fixed product with little thought for global trends (in particular the harvest of Russian forest-which are vast vast areas and simply lawless right now, cut and ship as much as you can grab).  

CTL interest me because it is as close as I can get to replicating a person and a mule as I can get but be mechanical.  I want it to be computerized because I am interested in fine precision.  I want to know exactly where that 12" cut off is and I want to know how much we cut and all the stats on it.    I want to know how many logs are on the landing, I want to know the species, ideally I want to know that while the processor is cutting.  I have to have a good clean site and I have big oak and hickory tops, they have to be processed down to 4' pieces.  Finally I want to be able to afford to pay a good good wage.  I would like my employees to be middle class and happy, not desperate.  Some of that is on me but I'll not get there with hotsaws or hand cutting.  
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Online Southside

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #117 on: July 25, 2019, 08:58:00 AM »
A customer was here a couple weeks ago telling me about a timber sale he had done to clear some land. He was very happy with the $1500 ish / acre he got from his clear-cut. In my mind that is a pathetic return, on 30 years it's only $50 gross / year. Take out capitalization, taxes, interest, replanting and or grubbing costs and what did he really make? 

l love buying pine logs, selling them, not so much. 
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #118 on: July 25, 2019, 09:47:40 AM »
A customer was here a couple weeks ago telling me about a timber sale he had done to clear some land. He was very happy with the $1500 ish / acre he got from his clear-cut. In my mind that is a pathetic return, on 30 years it's only $50 gross / year. Take out capitalization, taxes, interest, replanting and or grubbing costs and what did he really make?

l love buying pine logs, selling them, not so much.
Exactly, just comparing holding it vs the stock market at a 6.6% vanguard mutual fund return and he'd have had $3400 today if he sold the land 30 years ago and put in the mutual funds.  Today he has 1500 and maybe 1000 in land if it is cutover.  He's paid tax's on it, maybe he paid planting costs, etc and where is he today?  By comparison he's in the hole big time.  If he's smart he'd take that 1500/acre and put into stocks on the next good dip.  Sell the land, put that into stocks the next big dip.  
Danny is in the only area in the US where it can even look close to a good investment but that is because he's growing nearly twice as fast as we are here in VA.  
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: CTL Market
« Reply #119 on: July 25, 2019, 12:32:15 PM »
much food for thought guys, thanks.  
Revelation 3:20


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