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Author Topic: log arch build  (Read 3326 times)

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Offline Crusarius

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Re: log arch build
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2019, 04:36:04 PM »
pretty nice build. Wow. did you have any bigger steel?

You will need to full box the tongue to get rid of the twisting. you can stitch weld it 1" every 6" it does not need to be full welded. and 1/8" plate will be more than enough.

Offline OffGrid973

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Re: log arch build
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2019, 08:07:01 PM »
Great build...did we order the final color yet, always a good topic of discussion :)
Your Fellow Woodworker,
- Off Grid

Offline Revival Sawmill

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Re: log arch build
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2019, 08:31:16 PM »
Im getting a price on some 4 bar stock, trying to figure out the best way to do it without going (further) overboard!  I have a thing about tubular steel- seems to always have major rust problems around here, even with weep holes/etc.  Any thoughts on some sort of round stock welded in an X|X|X pattern down either side of the tongue? 

I was planning something bright- safety yellow or fire engine red.  My xyl suggested letting some hippies have a go at it with a few cans of spraypaint- might be interesting, and Im sure it would be highly visible!

Offline ljohnsaw

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Re: log arch build
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2019, 09:42:08 PM »
Any thoughts on some sort of round stock welded in an X|X|X pattern down either side of the tongue?

Hmm, that would be interesting and would work.  Just some 3/8" rod and do a zig-zag down the side.  If you were doing on a 45, I don't think you'd need to make X's.  MY issue with that is trying to clean it up so you can rust-proof it with paint.
John Sawicky

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SkyTrak 9038, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/32" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Offline Revival Sawmill

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Re: log arch build
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2019, 03:23:03 AM »
Ospho and spray is the plan for the rest of it; if I can get good coverage on the back of the round rods, it might be OK?

Offline Crusarius

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Re: log arch build
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2019, 07:02:47 AM »
your problem with the I beam is it offers no or very little torsional rigidity. you have a single vertical that is supporting 2 horizontals. the x's may stiffen it a little but not enough to make doing it worthwhile. and if it does stiffen it that little bit over time I guarantee you will get cracks from the heat affected zones on your x bracing across your tongue. 

There are only 2 ways to fix this that I can think of. Replace it with that bent box that you tried to straighten or full box it. If you are going to full box it, paint the I first. Then weld the plating on the outside and paint again. It will minimize rust. or box it in and seal it.

Since you will be lifting the logs up between the wheels the load will be centered there. The super stiff tongue may not even be necessary.

Whats the width inside the wheels? and length from inside tongue to wheels?

Offline doc henderson

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Re: log arch build
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2019, 11:56:58 AM »
I assume Cru is wanting to calculate you max. poss. load.  if you get it welded up, you could do some careful test runs to see how it works.  add more steel as is needed.  If this is going into sloped rocky back wood applications, it may require the full box beam tongue treatment.  once you bend an I beam, it will never be the same.  quite impressive.
timberking B 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.

Offline Revival Sawmill

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Re: log arch build
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2019, 12:14:45 PM »
Im out of town today, but when I get back to the computer, I can put some sketches up. From memory, the inside of the arch is right around 30-31 (pretty sure I set it for the tires to be 48 apart, and to be able to haul the biggest log I want on the LT35),  the tongue is 119, the down section another 4, and the load will hang an inch or two off the back of the arch, mostly, so another 6 there?
Thanks again for all the help with this!

Offline Crusarius

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Re: log arch build
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2019, 12:34:11 PM »
your definitely more than strong enough for the load you could possibly have. Not sure if I would worry about boxing the tongue. the only real reason I could think of is if the log is hanging from that part and swinging back and forth. The I beam was designed for a straight vertical load on it so side loading would not be ideal.

I probably would still box the tongue. but no need top use anymore than 1/8"

Offline Revival Sawmill

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Re: log arch build
« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2019, 09:09:45 AM »
your definitely more than strong enough for the load you could possibly have. Not sure if I would worry about boxing the tongue. the only real reason I could think of is if the log is hanging from that part and swinging back and forth. The I beam was designed for a straight vertical load on it so side loading would not be ideal.

I probably would still box the tongue. but no need top use anymore than 1/8"
Thanks!  I'm less concerned about the tongue as I am the welds at the top of the 'down' portion of it right at the front, by the hitch.  In my mind, as I'm going down the road with a log, whenever I go around a curve or turn a corner, there will be some inertia from the front half of the log (chained to the horizontal portion of the tongue) pushing to the side; currently, I think this will cause the beam to twist a bit as the weight of the log tries to overshoot the direction I'm pulling the vertical/hitch part...? That's bound to fail eventually. 
I'm leaning towards boxing the tongue at this point - waiting for some prices from the steel guy, and trying to carve out some time to get back to this! 
I'll try to get some sketches of the arch up in a couple of minutes, and see if that makes any difference...  ;)

Offline doc henderson

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Re: log arch build
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2019, 09:34:45 AM »
I have seen a few with a downward V to trap the front part of the log, or at least if it was chained to the tongue tightly would help.  I am not as worried with the simple inertia of the log that should move with the tongue, but if you developed a motion, like a resonance oscillation that could amplify, with movement and then abrupt forces when it swings and then hits the end of  a chain.  so I would develop a way to clamp the front of the log well.  also in a post I thought you said something about only going 6 inches past the arch.  but I think you want the log nearly centered at the arch with maybe a little forward for tongue wt.   all in all looking very good.  Without an engineering dept. and prototypes it is hard to fab up just enough, without going overboard.  As well, asking all of us tends to push in the overboard direction as well  :).  thanks for letting us participation in your build! 8).  so if the tongue is 10 feet, you could carry a 20 foot log.  I bet you could do a triangle inside the area of the log at the front of the tongue.  If not it can be outside the area of the log, but may look more clunky.  Regards!
addendum: went back and looked, you have it well triangulated at the front! looks great
timberking B 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.

Offline Revival Sawmill

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Re: log arch build
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2019, 09:53:15 AM »
Ok - here's the initial sketches from librecad - It changed a bit in construction (about 1/2" wider arch, the upper diagonal brace is longer/lower angle, etc) but this is basically it.  
Again, I can't claim any credit for the design, so don't take this as original/use it commercially/get me in trouble!  :o



 


 


 
Thanks,

Offline Revival Sawmill

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Re: log arch build
« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2019, 09:57:33 AM »
I have seen a few with a downward V to trap the front part of the log, or at least if it was chained to the tongue tightly would help.  I am not as worried with the simple inertia of the log that should move with the tongue, but if you developed a motion, like a resonance oscillation that could amplify, with movement and then abrupt forces when it swings and then hits the end of  a chain.  so I would develop a way to clamp the front of the log well.  also in a post I thought you said something about only going 6 inches past the arch.  but I think you want the log nearly centered at the arch with maybe a little forward for tongue wt.   all in all looking very good.  Without an engineering dept. and prototypes it is hard to fab up just enough, without going overboard.  As well, asking all of us tends to push in the overboard direction as well  :).  thanks for letting us participation in your build! 8).  so if the tongue is 10 feet, you could carry a 20 foot log.  I bet you could do a triangle inside the area of the log at the front of the tongue.  If not it can be outside the area of the log, but may look more clunky.  Regards!
addendum: went back and looked, you have it well triangulated at the front! looks great
Thanks!  
I think I'll only be able to get about 16' under it, since the front bracing eats up some of that capacity - The couple of inches behind the arch should be the hoist point, if I've gotten this right, so a little less than half the log will stick out the back.  I'm planning to chain the front of the log to the tongue (a foot or two back from the front end of the log), but had thought to just hook it on there directly; do you think I need some sort of jaws/triangular recess/studs sticking down on either side to help trap it?
Thanks again,

Offline doc henderson

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Re: log arch build
« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2019, 10:26:07 AM »
I think as long as you can stop it from swinging and swaying you are fine.  The only other concern is if the front of the log is chained up, and that makes it higher than the center, then the back may drag the ground.  It could always be added later if that is a problem.  It could be something that slides forward and back on the square tongue to accommodate longer or shorter logs.  not all logs are strait so may help with that.  again, I would get it up and going and you then have a working prototype.  If you do not have spindles/hubs yet, could consider electric brakes with and actuator if you work on inclines ect.
timberking B 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.

Offline Crusarius

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Re: log arch build
« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2019, 10:31:43 AM »
any type of V notch is going to hold the front of the log from swaying and keep it straight. I would think about adding that. You will not be sorry.

Offline Revival Sawmill

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Re: log arch build
« Reply #35 on: May 22, 2019, 11:35:14 AM »
Then I'll rig up some way to snub the front of the log side to side!  Already have spindles, no electric brakes; hopefully the tractor (and someday the truck) is heavy enough to hold it!  They're the heaviest-duty ones I could find that didn't put me into an ag tire, from etrailer's website.  Showed up with the bearings in the same box with the hubs, all smashed up. 







 
 
 They were speedy with a replacement, so I'm pretty happy with that end of things so far.  We'll see how the spindles/bearings/hubs/tires work out once they're on there.
The plan now is to wrap the bearing surfaces of the spindles in some scrap canvas, tack-weld them into a piece of stainless angle a buddy loaned me at the correct spacing, flip the arch over, position the tips of the spindles equidistant from the hitch, tack them onto the bottoms of the 'foot' plates, grind the angle off, and weld a couple of pieces of 2"x1/2" bar on either side of each spindle to box them in.  If anyone knows a better way to get them aligned/straight/attached, I'm all ears!
Thanks,


Offline ljohnsaw

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Re: log arch build
« Reply #36 on: May 22, 2019, 11:42:41 AM »
If anyone knows a better way to get them aligned/straight/attached, I'm all ears!
 
Are you planning on going down the highway?  Going fast?  In all reality, its not going to matter much on the alignment.  Sure, its nice to be perfect but if you are hauling through the woods on muddy, loose dirt or gravel, the tracking is not going to matter all that much.  Your excellent idea with the angle iron will result in alignment that will be 200% better than what is needed for this application! ;)

If you want to forgo the tacking of the spindles to angle iron, just clamp the angle to your pads and clamp the spindles to the angle and pads.  Then tack the spindles in place.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/32" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Offline Revival Sawmill

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Re: log arch build
« Reply #37 on: May 22, 2019, 03:46:34 PM »
If anyone knows a better way to get them aligned/straight/attached, I'm all ears!

Are you planning on going down the highway?  Going fast?  In all reality, its not going to matter much on the alignment.  Sure, its nice to be perfect but if you are hauling through the woods on muddy, loose dirt or gravel, the tracking is not going to matter all that much.  Your excellent idea with the angle iron will result in alignment that will be 200% better than what is needed for this application! ;)

If you want to forgo the tacking of the spindles to angle iron, just clamp the angle to your pads and clamp the spindles to the angle and pads.  Then tack the spindles in place.
Glad to hear my plan should work! 
I'm going to register this with NCDOT/DMV as a home-built trailer, so I'll be able to drive down the road with it, but I hope to never get it on a highway, and if I do so, it'll be SLOW... 

Offline Revival Sawmill

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Re: log arch build
« Reply #38 on: May 22, 2019, 04:20:15 PM »
Here's a video of me cleaning up the tree that *almost* got the woodmizer, if you're bored. 

Offline Revival Sawmill

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Re: log arch build
« Reply #39 on: May 23, 2019, 03:00:31 PM »
Steel to box the beam is on order.  My buddy at the steel place mentioned welding gussets into either side of the ibeam as a way to stiffen without ending up with enclosed spaces; anyone have any experience with this?  

I'm envisioning something like this:



 

Thanks,


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