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Author Topic: Sharpener options for different bands?  (Read 2064 times)

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Offline alan gage

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Sharpener options for different bands?
« on: June 05, 2019, 05:55:20 PM »
I'm seriously considering sharpening my own bands. I'm not a huge user but shipping both ways will get spendy and I hate messing with that stuff. It might not completely make sense from a financial stand point but I think it will from a mental health stand point. I'm looking at both the Timberking and Cats Claw automatic sharpeners.

One thing I'm wondering about from you users is how easy (and expensive) it would be to switch these machines to different band profiles. There are some other sawyers in the area and once I get some sharpening experience I might try to pick up some business sharpening their bands.

How much should I expect it to cost for each band profile with these (or other sharpeners)? From what I've seen so far I think the Timberking can be adjusted to saw most profiles without buying different components while the cats claw will require different cams, and maybe custom grinding them if not available for a specific band. Do I have this right? If I can pick up a little extra money to help pay for the sharpener that would be great but if I need to invest money for each band profile it probably wouldn't be worth it since it would be low volume.

I'm currently running 4 degree kasco bands and plan to stick with them in the foreseeable future.

Alan
Timberking B-16, a few chainsaws from small to large, and a Bobcat 783 Skidloader.

Offline Bruno of NH

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Re: Sharpener options for different bands?
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2019, 07:02:54 PM »
Woodmizer cbn gives a better band in my view
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls Riehl Steel edger,Mahindra 3540 cab tractor loader F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

Offline kelLOGg

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Re: Sharpener options for different bands?
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2019, 06:07:38 AM »
My CatClaw came with 2 cams when I bought it 17 years ago. I have read on the FF of reshaping them with a grinder to change the profile but I have never done that. I am very glad I bought the auto sharpener. I don't saw every day but the thought of packing and shipping bands periodically is something I knew I did not want to put up with. I have modified mine to grind to 4°, 6°, 8° because my 17 yo unit had only 10° and 15°. I don't think mods are necessary on newer units. As far as expense goes, mine has been only the cost of grind rocks. I think you will be glad to get one.
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Offline LeeB

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Re: Sharpener options for different bands?
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2019, 06:55:05 AM »
I reshaped a few but was never really happy with what I had done. The last cam I purchased came from member cuttingedge. Between that and changing from a 1/4" rock to 3/8" I've been real happy with it.
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

Offline YellowHammer

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Re: Sharpener options for different bands?
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2019, 08:08:33 AM »
I had a cats claw and now have a WM250 CBN.  The Cooks can be configured as a true universal sharpener, and can sharpen any profile, but its deficiency is that it is not oil cooled, so must be run to cut relatively shallow and slow or tooth burning will occur and the grind wheel will wear relatively quickly, even a ruby.  I was able to hand grind cams for any hook and brand I wanted, just buy a standard cam and take a Sharpie and mark on the cam where it jacks up off the band profile (wheel not running of course) and take file or grinder and remove the cam material until the grind wheel follows the profile.  For setting the hook angle, drill and tap a few new holes on the side plate.  The issue with the Cats Claw is speed.  With the ruby rocks, in order to take a good clean burn free grind, it would take about 7 minutes per round, and it would generally take me 2 trips around, so 14 minutes per band to sharpen, or 4 bands per hour.  I had the Cooks timer installed on on mine where it would shut off at 7 minutes which gave me a full trip around, because I got tired of waiting on it.  I'd do 4 bands per hour average throughput.  I use 2 sometimes 3 bands per day, so I was wasting way too much time sharpening.

In contrast, the WM sharpener is in a whole different league, because it is oil cooled and has a fixed CBN profile.  Much better construction, higher quality materials (aluminum and stainless) and will sharpen 2 minutes per pass, and most times, only one pass required, with a super clean grind.  However, the CBN wheel that make the sharpener so effective must be purchased for each profile, so more expensive in the short haul.  It takes three grinds for me to reprofile a band to a new CBN profile, that or different wheel need to be purchased.  I've got most of the WM CBN profiles, so its just part of the cost of buying the sharpener, although over time as I've simplified my band selection, I don't change wheels very often.  In contrast to the Cats Claw, I don't have time to set bands while sharpening and can do 10 to 12 bands per hour easy, including mounting and dismounting.  The oil is messier than a dry grind.

Two different machines, two different technologies, whatever the brand, dry grind vs oil cooled, there is a big difference.

HobbyHardwoodAlabama.com

Offline terrifictimbersllc

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Re: Sharpener options for different bands?
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2019, 08:31:26 AM »
 The BMS 250 is a very well designed machine. I don’t look at it thinking of five ways I could make it better I just use it. It will cost you $140 for each profile if you get the wheels from Woodmizer. You have to be OK with the sharpener in a location where the oil mist and your personal handling of oily blades is OK.
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide, 2001 WM LT40SHDD (42HP Kubota, Accuset2, FAO's, Lubemizer, debarker),  Logrite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

Offline Stephen1

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Re: Sharpener options for different bands?
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2019, 12:57:58 PM »
I also had the old drag sharpeners and it drove me crazy profiling the wheels, as I had to do quite a few. I tend to eat blades doing urban sawing. nails, dirt, rocks, you name it I hit it. I would get so frustated at not having a sharpening service tha sometimes I would own 75 + blades. No time to sharpen as I was busy sawing making money.
I prchased the WM 250 auto sharpener and setter. What a treat as everyone says. A no brainer. The setter was a little bit of thinking but once I set it up it runs great. 
 I can throw blades on the setter to the sharpener and in an hour I am good for another week of sawing. I am in the process of changing the 10's to 7's and as YH says 3 times around and they are as good as a new 7.
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Offline alan gage

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Re: Sharpener options for different bands?
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2019, 02:39:18 PM »
You guys aren't helping. You were supposed to tell me the cheaper of the options I was looking at (Timberking) would be just fine. Not start pushing a third, more expensive, option!

I did look further into the WM auto sharpener. It does look really nice but at this point in my sawing career (and not knowing if it will ever turn into a career) I think it's just a little more than I can justify.

The information provided so far has helped clear things up in my head in terms of operation. I've still got a while to ruminate on this and will do so.

Thanks,

Alan
Timberking B-16, a few chainsaws from small to large, and a Bobcat 783 Skidloader.

Offline Bandmill Bandit

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Re: Sharpener options for different bands?
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2019, 02:52:54 PM »
When it comes to sharpening products you can be cheap and spend money to get the  cheap equipment and then you can keep spending money to keep mediocre equipment doing a soso job that you would be better off having done by a professional service for less out of pocket cash at the end of the day.

OR 

You can pay the price for professional equipment and then BECOME a professional sharpener which will save you money over all AND also bring the possibility of some cash flow to sharpen for others.

Sharpening is the 2nd most important part of sawmill management and operation. IMNSHO!!
   
If you ain't livin on the edge you are takin up way to much room. Of course at my age if I get too close to that edge any more theres a good chance I may fall off.
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Offline Bruno of NH

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Re: Sharpener options for different bands?
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2019, 04:58:25 PM »
WM has a cbn that sharpens and sets
It's manual 
I don't know how long it takes
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls Riehl Steel edger,Mahindra 3540 cab tractor loader F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

Offline terrifictimbersllc

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Re: Sharpener options for different bands?
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2019, 07:27:48 PM »
In business now I often look for?’s in customers emails and make sure that I answer each one of them. So when I looked back at your original post, I saw, down aways ,How much should it cost to change profile for these and other sharpeners ? So I took the liberty of answering that question as well as making a couple other statements. :-) :-)
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide, 2001 WM LT40SHDD (42HP Kubota, Accuset2, FAO's, Lubemizer, debarker),  Logrite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

Offline alan gage

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Re: Sharpener options for different bands?
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2019, 09:58:14 PM »
In business now I often look for?’s in customers emails and make sure that I answer each one of them. So when I looked back at your original post, I saw, down aways ,How much should it cost to change profile for these and other sharpeners ? So I took the liberty of answering that question as well as making a couple other statements. :-) :-)
And it was appreciated.
I hope my last post didn't sound rude. I was joking about you guys not helping by recommending an even more expensive sharpener. While it's not exactly what I want to hear it did help clarify some differences between the machines and made me go back and take a closer look at the Woodmizer and it has me taking a harder look at what I want out of a sharpener.
Being a non-pro I sometimes struggle with spending money to save time. It's easy for me to say that my time is worth $XX, and I often justify purchases by doing just that, but in reality would I actually use that extra time to make money? Sometimes I need to remind myself that at this point it's mostly a hobby and that I might be better served by saving money and spending a little extra time.
Alan
Timberking B-16, a few chainsaws from small to large, and a Bobcat 783 Skidloader.

Offline Tom the Sawyer

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Re: Sharpener options for different bands?
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2019, 10:02:26 PM »
Alan,

I have the Timberking Talon Auto Sharpener, and a Suffolk Dual Tooth Setter.  The TK is very adjustable and will sharpen multiple profiles.  I have sharpened about 7 different brands with it, and some in both 10° and 7° angles.  When I first got it I was trying out different brands of blades, and spent a lot time making adjustments to follow the various profiles.  Pretty much all of the bands I use now are Kasco so I don't have to make many adjustments, primarily the wheel depth as the grinding wheel wears.  I use the black wheels, the white ones wore down very quickly.  I would like to try a ruby wheel but I haven't found one with the 5/8" arbor.
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Offline Banjo picker

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Re: Sharpener options for different bands?
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2019, 10:45:45 PM »
@Tom the Sawyer , what model of Suffolk Dual Tooth Setter do you have, and does it do a really good job?  I have the Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter, and with the blade usage for me the Cat Claw sharpener is fine, it does a great job of sharpening my bands.  Mine is over 10 years old and I have heard that the older ones were better.  The single tooth setter is also very precise, but it is o so slow....one two three...one two three...reverse band and here we go again.  I have heard that the Suffolk setters were might nice.  Banjo
Cooks AC 36--Prentice 210C--Morgan edger--Kubota M7040 with loader--Case 580 K with extendahoe--Case 850C dozer--Int 1700 series twin cylinder dump/log/flatbed truck--logging arch--2 Logrite mill sp.--Cat claw sharpening system--And a bulldog to make sure it all stays here.

Offline LeeB

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Re: Sharpener options for different bands?
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2019, 11:15:01 PM »
I've got a Suffolk setter and my sharpener is actually labeled as a Suffolk too. I guess they marketed them before Cooks started selling them as Cat Claw. I go them used along with my mill 13 years ago. Can't tell you the model number on the setter at the moment. Too far away.
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

Offline barbender

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Re: Sharpener options for different bands?
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2019, 12:07:52 AM »
That's interesting, LeeB.
Too many irons in the fire

Offline bandmiller2

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Re: Sharpener options for different bands?
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2019, 06:12:20 AM »
Alan, don't be afraid of the cat. I've had mine 15 years or so. Sharp is sharp and the cats claw will get you there. Owning your own sharpener will set you free. I rarely use more than one pass around the band as I don't run until dull. I have a few cams but usually only use one regardless of the bands profile. Theirs a lot of hype about bands and magic gullet shapes. My grinding stones ( rocks to you southern boys) last a very long time, I dress them once and use them along time. Burning teeth is not a problem unless you hog off a lot of metal on a pass. Adaptability is important especially if your going to sharpen others bands. The biggest pain in the butt is setting bands I would get a real good setter like the Suffolk double side. Not everyone has the temperament to sharpen tools, it takes some skill, but is rewarding financially and satisfaction wise.  After a few years, maybe sooner, the savings will have paid for the sharpener. Its easy to change set and hook angles to what works best for you, you can't do that on some machines without expensive wheel. Good luck mate any questions just ask. Frank C.
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Offline YellowHammer

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Re: Sharpener options for different bands?
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2019, 08:06:44 AM »
Alan, I picked up on your comments and took them as they were intended, I was only trying to cover other alternatives. :D :D :D

I consider the difference between the Cooks drag sharpener and the Woodmizer CBN about the same difference as between a manual mill and a hydraulic mill.  All products of good manufacture will cut quality lumber, as in sharpeners.  But there is a world of difference between the technologies.  

I have not used and owned anything but the two sharpener brands I have mentioned.
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Offline RHayes

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Re: Sharpener options for different bands?
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2019, 09:20:09 AM »
I would suggest getting set up to do the one profile you use the most.  Make the best effort to use and grind them evenly through their lifespan as this will require the minimum amount of adjustments and profiling of the stone.  Then send the others out.  

Offline Southside

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Re: Sharpener options for different bands?
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2019, 09:51:24 AM »
Anyone around you have one style or the other?  I have only used my CBN 250 sharpener but I can tell you it is very easy to operate and I can sharpen bands which perform better than those I used to get back after having been sent out.  
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