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Author Topic: Production estimates  (Read 1563 times)

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Offline rooster 58

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Production estimates
« on: June 06, 2019, 01:38:41 PM »
Calling all lt35 operators, 
    I just looked at a job opportunity to saw 18,000 lineal feet of 1x4, and 2,500 lineal feet of 1x6. This material will be processed to baseboard and window sill trim
    The lumber will be sawn from ponderosa pine. The logs are in tree length, and will need to be bucked. Also, the logs are mostly small diameter,  8-12", with some going 12-14".
     This trim will be used in 26 small residential homes at a monastery,  and the superintendent would like to utilize the trees on the property. 
   I will have the use of their skid steer. I am providing a helper, (a good hand).
    I usually like to charge an hourly rate, which sounded ok to the superintendent,  however, he wants an idea of the board footage or lineal footage that I can produce in one day with my lt35.
    I have not sawn much of this type or volume. Normally,  I could saw 1500 bd ft a day with  a good hand. But sawing all small stock with small logs will bring production down. I should also mention that the average log length will probably be around 12'
      Can anyone say, or guess how much footage they could do under similar circumstances?
    Thanks guys for your help 

Offline Magicman

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Re: Production estimates
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2019, 02:26:32 PM »
My recommendation is for an agreement to saw a sample couple of days with the understanding that either of you can opt out after the sample run.  Good communication is a key ingredient to a good agreement.
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Offline WV Sawmiller

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Re: Production estimates
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2019, 02:32:05 PM »
   I like the MM's suggestion.

  If it was me I'd still plan on 1500-2000 bf per day. That is just the sawing after the logs are all bucked and stacked. Sounds like you will be doing lots of log handling but does not look like a lot of edging and the cants will fairly thin and you can zip right through them. Good luck.      

                                                                                     
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Offline Bandmill Bandit

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Re: Production estimates
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2019, 02:43:44 PM »
While MMs advice is top shelf, I personaly would ONLY do that job that by the hour!

1) 1x material is a tedious time consuming process even though it is fun and enjoy able

2) un less you have real good help to keep the logs ready to load on the mill AND keep cut lumber moving, stacked and moved away from mill your production numbers will not look so great. 1x material is not a high production process on a LT35. I think I could manage about 2500 to 3000 BF on my LT40 Almost super with top notch logs and help BUT the only thing I would be doing is sawing. Nothing else.  
If you ain't livin on the edge you are takin up way to much room. Of course at my age if I get too close to that edge any more theres a good chance I may fall off.
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Offline rooster 58

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Re: Production estimates
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2019, 04:11:13 PM »
Bandmill Bandit,
    I'm with you. I think 2000 bd ft/day is a lofty goal,  especially with so many small diameter logs. My hourly rate pretty much coincides with the going rate of sawing by the footage, of I can meet my goal of 1450/ day. I also reminded the client that due to small logs, I may need more time to complete the order

Offline Bruno of NH

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Re: Production estimates
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2019, 04:54:55 PM »
I'm with MM
Ask to work a couple of sample days.
Anyone one worth working for with be into that.
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Re: Production estimates
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2019, 10:05:28 PM »
I am going to throw a wrench into this.  If the plan is to use the product off of your saw directly as trim then I would be very, very, leery of expecting very high production.  It would not surprise me if your production dropped significantly over normal operation.  I ran my 35 for a few years before I got my 4 head moulder and thought I was making very straight lumber - the moulder proved me quite wrong, that became the reason I bought an edger as the number of dips, rises, thick, and thin, boards becomes much more obvious when you begin to compare what you have produced to any straight line - which my moulder requires.  Even edging after drying did not keep tolerances tight enough.  Even had a guy with a 40 Super edge some material once and found the same thing, bands just have too much flex in them for super tight tolerance, which I would guess is going to be a requirement given the client.  

I think Magicmans suggestion of a trial run is very good advice both to look at the time and quality of product produced.  
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Offline rooster 58

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Re: Production estimates
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2019, 12:08:31 AM »
From what I understand,  the lumber is to be kiln dried,  and then processed thru planting, or run through a moulder, he wasn't sure which

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Re: Production estimates
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2019, 12:21:12 AM »
Ok - then that makes what you are suggesting a lot more comfortable, you will want to keep in mind to leave enough extra for that final step.  I usually leave an inch of width for material under 8", then I increase to maybe 1.25" - 1.5" over depending on the wood and width.  
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Offline Bandmill Bandit

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Re: Production estimates
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2019, 10:13:55 AM »
I didn't address the log quality/size issue.
You MAY with ideal conditions be able to produce up to 2000BF in a LONG day, BUT likely half of that will not be of a quality to use for the intended purpose. 

IF you have your mill DIALED in to the performance level that I like to operate my mill at You might hit 2000 to 2500 a third of the days you are on the job.

Using 7 Carbide Turbos will help a LOT both with production AND consistent quality.

When cutting the type of finishing product you will be cutting you really don't want ANY pith and that means you pretty much want to cut a 2"x2" minimum (some times it will take a 4"x4")  out of the center of most logs. 

If I was to do that job with my equipment and knowledge/experience I would calculate 40 percent of the milled lumber as product that can go to the shaper and that will probably be on conservative side and very close to actual yield .Remember that about 25% of what goes through the shaper is waste produced during install. 

I am going to go out on a limb and say the max of usable product that will come through the shaper is going to be in the range of 800 to a 1000 board feet in and 8 hour day. It will take 1600 to 2000 BF of saw milled product to get that amount of quality finish lumber.

With the quality of the logs mentioned( and with out seeing them) you aint gona get there for yield.       

Personaly I would STILL do it because it is a good challenge to produce that kind and quality of material, but it isn't going to be less $$ to the client then going to the local Home Depot and picking up a lift of what they need to do the job. 
If you ain't livin on the edge you are takin up way to much room. Of course at my age if I get too close to that edge any more theres a good chance I may fall off.
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Offline Magicman

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Re: Production estimates
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2019, 12:23:38 PM »
If you are being paid by the bf, scale/measure the dimension that you saw, not the dimension that he wants the final product to.  Stated another way; if he wants an actual finished 1X4, and you saw 1X5, then scale 1X5.  The shaving are his, not yours.
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Offline moodnacreek

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Re: Production estimates
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2019, 12:41:55 PM »
This is what gang saws are for, doing this on your head saw is very inefficient.

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Re: Production estimates
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2019, 02:05:29 PM »
Only if you happen to have a gang saw.  ;)  Otherwise, you use what you got.  :)

I'm content sawing 1X4's @ $75 per hour.  ;D
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Offline stavebuyer

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Re: Production estimates
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2019, 02:37:17 PM »
One of the lowest production and lowest yield items I ever sawed was a Hemlock fixed dimension 1"x8"x10' order for vertical cabin siding. I owned the logs. Never again. Random width and length at half the price would have been twice the money.

Offline rooster 58

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Re: Production estimates
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2019, 03:13:17 PM »
Yeah, normally I  charge 80- 90.00/hr. I quoted 85.00/ he with an offbearer. I will pick up 3.00/hr from the offbearer.  With the smaller size logs, there will be considerable degrade that will be of no use. 
    If I complete the job in five days, it will work out to .47/bd ft, which is only .02 more than the larger mill that's near me, whom also recommended me 

Offline rooster 58

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Re: Production estimates
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2019, 03:15:59 PM »
I forgot to ask, 
    How do the 7 degree turbos work on the lt35 with the 25hp motor? I'm going to the open house in Buena Vista tomorrow and could pick up a box.
     Also, I just might trade my little 35 in on something else  :)

Offline Bandmill Bandit

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Re: Production estimates
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2019, 03:31:24 PM »
Is that $.47 a BF of usable finished product OR $.47 BF of TOTAL BF that you saw out for the project??

There is a HUGE difference in those numbers!

FYI;  biggar mill will not improve your production numbers drastically on this job. I was very generous in my numbers as I based them on what I know could do with my mill in good quality logs and reduced that by about 20%.

7 carbide turbos work well on the LT35. Thats what the Woodmizer guys used on the LT35 they had at the local ag show last fall.
If you ain't livin on the edge you are takin up way to much room. Of course at my age if I get too close to that edge any more theres a good chance I may fall off.
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Offline millwright

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Re: Production estimates
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2019, 03:44:26 PM »
2000 per day with a good offbearer should be doable, that is if you have straight logs and they are 12 long. Ive done 3000 per day a couple times, but that was on an 8/4 thickness

Offline millwright

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Re: Production estimates
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2019, 03:47:54 PM »
One more important thing is, who is doing the bucking ? You or the owner.

Offline rooster 58

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Re: Production estimates
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2019, 04:11:17 PM »
The owner is doing the bucking. I made it clear that if I bucket the logs, he would be billed extra.
     I have not really tried to saw slot if footage in a day with my 35, that is I never had a real opportunity. I did however saw approximately 1500 ft one day, working primarily alone, with occasional help from someone.  But that was sawing bigger stuff.

Offline rooster 58

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Re: Production estimates
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2019, 04:18:21 PM »
Yeah, sawing 2000 ft in a day wouldn't be hard, especially if you're sawing 2x6, 8, or 2x10 material.  But sawing 4/4, you have twice the cuts. And sawing 1x4, you need 500 pcs from 12' logs. And let's say you're only going to get 8 pcs from a log. That would take 63 logs to make 509 pcs, and that's if every pc was good

Offline YellowHammer

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Re: Production estimates
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2019, 11:03:29 PM »
Small logs, small boards, and high qaulity trim required, means more log and cant manipulation than sawing.  So the hydros will be absorbing most of the time, and LT35 hydros arent Super speed.

Id give him a comservative estimate, and if you beat it, you look good.  If you meet it you look good.  If you miss it, then, well, good thing you didnt give him the optimistic estimate. 

 
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Re: Production estimates
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2019, 12:17:38 AM »
The turbos work very well on a 35 with 25 Kohler ponies. Good logs, loader feeding me, good off bearer I have done 2500 BF of 4/4 in a day multiple times with my 35. 
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Re: Production estimates
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2019, 08:05:37 AM »
The logs are only 8"-14" so the logs will all be "flitched" down to to the center cant for saw through. There will be much flitch edging with them yielding one and two boards.  Grouping all of the "one square edge" flitches together might save time.  I would edge 6 and no more than 8 flitches at the time.  An edger would be nice.

Sawing a pecker pole job really needs two tailgunners and most of the log/cant turning would be faster if done with a short Cant Hook.
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Offline Stephen1

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Re: Production estimates
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2019, 08:29:03 AM »
I have a resaw and that is what I would use, it would help tremendously. I would saw all the logs down to a managable cant 3-4" thick plus saw blade and 5" wide. In fact on a job like yours I would invest in a resaw.
I have not had a lot of chances to use my resaw(it came with my old mill) but when I do I am amazed at the speed and production. What I estimated to be 4 hrs sawing time, turns in to 30 mins with the resaw. Put a carbide blade on and with clean wood you will saw the whole amount with 1 blade.  
I did a rush job on Thursday resawing 100- 4x6" cants into 7/4 lumber for roofing for a log cabin build. It took a helper and myself, 7 hrs, lots of handling and I believe I could have done that job in 1 hr with the resaw, customer did not want to have to wait for the plug to come from WM USA
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Re: Production estimates
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2019, 09:49:29 AM »
*2 on the resaw - well worth the money.  That is basically all my 35 is these days is a dedicated re-saw.  I did add on an infeed and outfeed skate roller table to each side so I can drop on 16' lumber and just walk away.  I make mountains of siding with mine.  This pile of logs will be mostly turned into siding. 



 
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Re: Production estimates
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2019, 11:11:30 AM »
All of my sawing is portable, hence no edger nor resaw.  Not going to incur the expense nor be concerned with the moving/transporting.

Of course many of my business decisions are based upon my age and lack of interest in any business growth expectations.  ;D
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Re: Production estimates
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2019, 11:55:09 AM »
Well maybe when you grow up there Magicman you will get serious about sawing.   :D
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Re: Production estimates
« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2019, 01:03:29 PM »
 smiley_headscratch  Actually I am still trying to figure out what I want to be when if I grow up??   smiley_idea
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Re: Production estimates
« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2019, 02:34:20 PM »
Lynn,

   I always heard "You may have to grow old but you don't ever have to grow up." :D
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Re: Production estimates
« Reply #30 on: June 08, 2019, 05:37:37 PM »
Do these WM resaws you speak about tilt for bevel siding ?
Anyone have a movie of one running or picture how it goes on the mill ?
How long does it take to in stall ?
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Re: Production estimates
« Reply #31 on: June 08, 2019, 06:01:24 PM »
Yes they tilt, 10 minutes to install, I will take a video tomorrow of siding production.
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Re: Production estimates
« Reply #32 on: June 08, 2019, 09:51:47 PM »
Hello,
   We have good luck with the 7 Turbo blade on the smaller hp engine Wood Mizer. When they were first released WM suggested 35 hp or more. We sell many 25 hp mills and almost every new customer leaves with a box of Turbo blades. The deep gullet and the aggressive tooth design really make the mill shine. Slower feed rates do allow for wash board ripples, usually see at the beginning and the end of the cut. You may also find sawdust between the cut and again increasing feed rate will reduce or eliminate these issues. If you feel that you want to keep the feed rate at a lower pace you may want to try the 9 degree. Another tip is if you are constant cutting 24" or wider the 25 hp may not be strong enough to pull the 7 Turbo. 
Hope this helps.
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Re: Production estimates
« Reply #33 on: June 09, 2019, 10:52:23 PM »
Here you go @Bruno of NH  Fair warning, if you get sea sick, don't watch this video. I had to take it with my cell phone while running the 70 and feeding the Re-saw. Brian is running the edger and stacking everything as it comes off. The 3rd guy decided it might rain today, so best not to come to work... >:(

Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.

Offline curved-wood

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Re: Production estimates
« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2019, 07:05:31 AM »
I would certainly check with the customer that he knows what he is getting into with all the steps, what are the spec of the moulder guy and his own requirements.  Is he going to take the heart, black knots, etc, ?   Yesterday my son and I just finish sawing 2,000 board feet of cherry for his moulding and inside doors, so we could optimized the run. A lot of steps for moulding : sawing, drying, edge resawing, 1st sizing planing, 2nd molding planing. We have  2 different uses of the run : the moulding (and the casing )  and the doors, so we have less waste because of the only one size 1x4 stuff, and propably a bit of left over will be sold.    But if the sawing was only for 1x4, I would add at least 25 % more time of sawing, and adding another 25 % of lost because of wider boards and other wood defect like bad knots and pit cracks, bowing etc. Your customer might end up of paying more than similar finish product. But all those hurdles might be perfectly OK with him. 


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