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Author Topic: Another build thread... JoshNZ  (Read 3322 times)

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Offline JoshNZ

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Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2019, 02:08:26 AM »
Keep the engine vertical, like it's meant to be. You run your belt to a jack shaft, both pulleys fairly equal in size, engine horizontal pulley to jack shaft vertical pulley with enough space for a 90 degree twist with the belt. Add a second pulley on the jack shaft to the band wheel pulley. Engine pulley needs to be lined up with the jack shaft and jack shaft pulley needs to be lined up with the crank shaft. Depending on which way you twist the belt determines which way the jack shaft turns.
Ray
I thought about that, not sure I like the idea of a twisted belt wouldn't it cause a lot of heat and wasted power?

I got looking closely at a $1 reserve 24hp B&S vertical today, the pump is on the cylinder side of the sump so it would need to be mounted cylinders pointing down for it to even have a chance. No go on that one. Would have to go electric pump to make that work, and that'd need pressure sensors + alarms etc... I think I'll stick with a horizontal shaft, I've got enough going on and that will turn into a seperate project.

That sounds like a brute you are working on Charles. That was part of the reason I ended up turning my own screws I couldn't find a 'list' price for anything over 1m long and I hate calling up industrial companies for pizzly stuff like this. But I thought 1m would be plenty and I'd tack shaft to either end of it to put the thread in the right place.
4140 is expensive that will certainly add to the cost. For not much gain really, I doubt you'll need the strength and the stuff still rusts! Not as quick but rust is rust.

Don't think there's any need to turn weld out of threads? Your shafts would go to either end of the threads. Google the garage spring, basically a big torsion spring exerting torque on a shaft that is trying to 'wind up' your saw head by means of cable or whatever.

Considered a gearbox too. One big enough for 20-30hp is several hundred. That plus pissing around I'm getting back into the zone of just being better off buying the horizontal.

Offline ljohnsaw

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Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2019, 02:21:03 AM »
For extending the threaded rod with non-threaded - use a sleeve.  Take a section of pipe and slip it over the end of each.  Or, lay a small section of angle iron - one on top, one on the bottom and clamp.  In the open areas on each side, tack it.  Remove the angle iron and tack the other two sides.  Roll it to check for straightness and weld some more.  As far as torque, there really won't be much stress on that.  More than 25 ft-lbs, I would be surprised.

Using springs.  Run a door spring (long coil spring made for tension) across the top of your mill head.  A cable goes from the end of the spring over a pulley to the bottom of your head and then around another so it is heading back up.  That cable is attached to a block pulley.  A cable from the top of the mast comes down around the block and back up to the top of the head.  When the head is all the way up, the block is at the bottom.  When the head goes down, the block goes up putting tension on the cable from the spring.


 
As the spring pulls to the right, it pulls the block down and moves the head up 1/2 the distance.  If you use a really powerful spring (or multiple springs in parallel), then you would increase the block to multiple sheaves (wheels) adding a multi-sheave pulley up on the top of the mast.  The idea being the spring doesn't expand and contract a lot to move (assist) a great movement of the head.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/32" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Offline charles mann

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Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2019, 02:55:45 AM »
For extending the threaded rod with non-threaded - use a sleeve.  Take a section of pipe and slip it over the end of each.  Or, lay a small section of angle iron - one on top, one on the bottom and clamp.  In the open areas on each side, tack it.  Remove the angle iron and tack the other two sides.  Roll it to check for straightness and weld some more.  As far as torque, there really won't be much stress on that.  More than 25 ft-lbs, I would be surprised.
according to matt creamona, the guy i bought the plans off, that built his mill first, it took 38 ft lbs (not sure if he used a spring scale or tq wrench to obtain that number) to lift and 25 to lower it, by turning 1 of the acme rods, which of course turned the other. 
i see what you are saying bout extending. i used coupling instead of sleeve, but yes, we are talking bout the same thing. i could use a 3/32 rod, amped up for penetration, the do a little clean up with a dremel. it would definitely be cheaper than buying more than needed, at least buy 2 from the same folks,, then get up with mc master carr or surplus center and buy a short section for adding to the other rods and enough to make a screw jack for my tensioning. i wish i could find a bronze flange nut that didn't cost an arm and 2 toes. i think mc master carr wants $232 per flange nut in 1.5-5
thank you for the inspiration. i say/heard $$$$ and decided to go back to sprockets and chains. but ya'll have given me hope
Temple, Tx
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Offline ljohnsaw

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Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2019, 10:52:33 AM »
and decided to go back to sprockets and chains.

Gears and chains are not necessarily a bad thing.  



There are 4 stages of reduction, IIRC.  Was something like 5 revolutions to raise/lower 1 inch.  When originally built, there was little friction and it could free-fall when the handle was not locked (push that black ball into some holes).



That turned the center sprocket above which drove the front and back sprockets to take the power to the other side of the head.



The vertical chain is fixed to the top of the saw frame.  It passes under driven sprockets and over the an idler sprocket.  The chain wraps a little more than half the driven sprocket.  A coil spring (below, at the end of the cant) can be seen at the bottom keeping tension on the chain so it doesn't hop a tooth.



The handle was replaced with a wheelchair motor and some switches.  A lot more fun to operate!


John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/32" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Offline charles mann

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Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2019, 03:12:06 PM »
 I'd run your screw as far inboard as you could, i.e. on the inboard rim of that sides wheel or whatever is closer that would otherwise interfere with a log.
I was doing some thinking drinkn last night. If i weld on a 12 section of 5x5x1/4 tubing on the outside of my carriage vertical tubing, cut an opening in the top that would allow the coupling to go inside the 5x5 tubing, that would give me 4.5 extra hight. Im also thinking that by picking up 8-10 behind the sawhead, that would help with the counter balance from the engine. 
Temple, Tx
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Offline JoshNZ

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Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2019, 10:51:03 PM »
Well this week has been a bit of a gong show really, no progress just finding and fixing dumb things.

I went to order bearings and pillows from an engineering company on Thursday. Had them on the bench and the price came to about $60 more than on their website I said surely you can do it for the website price, I'll give cash and walk away it's done. But nope, can't be done. So they put them away, I made an account, ordered, they got them out again, packaged them (free freight on them...) and I still haven't got them by the weekend... I can't really do much until I see how things lie with the shafts in place. Seems to be a blanket rule in NZ for these engineering companies to be massive assholes to any new face walking off the street.

Anyway...
I noticed the beam must have reared up slightly when I welded the gussets on the bearing tongues. Also figured this is what was binding the lead screw nuts, plus the old weld was so thick I couldn't get full size washers on the bottom bolts so there was enough reasons to cut the gussets and start again. Now it's dead level and looks a lot better.



 

I did weld up a box to go over the end of the beam, I hope there is enough support. I thought about welding in a length of flat bar in the last ~400mm of the beam and plug welding it's edges to add strength but looking at it I'm not sure it's necessary.



 



 


 

Again the cooling weld got the better of me, it is certainly my achilles heel. I shimmed it and welded it and waited that evening until I could pick it up with bare hands, it slipped on like a glove. The next morning was fairly cold and I could only get it on about half way. All the grinding and pounding I could throw at it didn't seem to fix it. I scratched my head for a while and ended up finding a pair of bolts that fit in it and backed nuts off them while jammed inside it to lever it open a bit. Re-tacked and it fit nicely. Nice little trick to remember.



 

Welded plate on the other end of the beam about the same size so heights match and will weld second plates which I'll tap for bearings when the blocks arrive. I'm thinking I will extend the plate out quite far from the beam and support it with a gusset, then fix the rear bearing in place with threads and mill slots for the front bearing. This will mean the wheels swing as you adjust tracking but I think fixable with tension. I'm a little worried the slotted holes in the pillow blocks won't be enough for tracking adjustment on their own?

4140 shaft arrived but again I want to wait on the bearings before I start them. Engine also arrived, I went with a 22hp V twin Sina which is a Loncin I think.


 


 

I took air box off to drain carb bowl etc and plumb fuel line when I went to put it back on I noticed one of these collars wasn't in the hole which prevent the bolt crushing the plastic...


 

Of course the only logical place it might have gone is down the intake... :'(
I swept the floors then turned the flippn shed upside-down looking for it. Crawled around the engine with a flash light looking in nooks and crannies, hoisted it 6ft in the air and did the same thing. Spent about 2 hours looking for something that may not even exist...

I turned another one on the lathe anyway and put it back together, pretty much welcoming the engine to chew itself to bits so at least I could find it but, it didn't. I got it started and running full noise up to temp, all that drama aside it is a honey of an engine I'm pretty happy with it.

Other than that added a few other nothing bits. Gusset+Skid plate to the trailer hitch and chain tensioner.


 

I clamped a bit of round bar and hung the wheel on it trying to figure out where my bottle jack should go (which does work on its side I've learned). It would be easy enough to put it under the beam and I'd lose 3" of cut at that point - would it matter given what I've got? Top of the beam won't work, and I think the back of the beam will add force trying to twist off the sleeve which is already what's trying to happen.

Once the plate/gusset go on I could weld a little arm that extends past the linear bearing and put the jack on the front of the beam which would be most ideal force wise, least ideal effort wise. Is it worth doing?



 

Next week should be a busy week I'll hopefully have running wheels with an engine mounted. Will get a blade ordered as soon as I know what the length is looking like

Offline JEverettM

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Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2019, 11:01:00 PM »
When you welded up the box to slide over the beam, how much did you shim between the beam and the plates? I was thinking of doing something similar, but don't know how much shim to include.

Offline charles mann

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Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2019, 11:35:10 PM »
When you welded up the box to slide over the beam, how much did you shim between the beam and the plates? I was thinking of doing something similar, but don't know how much shim to include.
when i did my box, i used 3 layers of aluminum tape on 2 sides and after welding, that wasn't enough for me. as with josh, all the hammer blows wouldn't force it on, well, i take that back I'm sure i could hammered it till it went on, but i know it would been a booger getting it off, seeing as i still had to hammer it off and it was only half way on. try 3-4 3x5 index cards on 2 sides. the guy i got my plans from used 3 or 4, can't remember, i think (90%) 4, and he had about 0.020" of wobble in his. i used a sanding disk on a grinder and ended up with about 0.040" of wobble. I'm gonna fix that buy putting a layer of hysol epoxy on my beam on 2 sides and depending, maybe the other 2 sides if i still have to much wobble. the best part is, with a lil lube, that hysol is about as slick as owl poop on a hickory limb and it take a lot of sanding to get it off and lays in nice and thin, or thick, depending the end requirements. but at $90 a pint, I'm glad mine was "expired" as far as the company shelf life policy, but it still works.
Temple, Tx
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Offline JoshNZ

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Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2019, 01:02:36 AM »
I used a bit of card I found ahha, not ideal. That was after a 10 minute look around. Something about .5mm on two sides would be ideal, on the shoulders not the hollow middles. It's less about clearance and more about which way it shrinks which welds you hit first last etc which I have no clue about really.

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Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2019, 10:29:49 AM »
For spacers I always use a 1/2" grade 8 washer. Relatively consistent in size and it doesn't burn when you get to close. Plus you only need one to cover 2 sides.

I dunno about you but I always have some in stock :)

Looking good. you should work on short welds and alternate welding locations. that will minimize the heat twist that you are getting. Or if you can balance the welding by doing a short weld in one place then going and doing the same thing on the opposite side they will keep each other flat.

welding is alot more than just sticking 2 pieces of steel together. Especially when you need them to mate or slide.

Offline JustinW_NZ

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Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
« Reply #30 on: August 11, 2019, 04:17:10 AM »
Build looks good!
What part of NZ you in Josh?
(Im in Nelson)

Cheers
Justin
Gear I run;
Woodmizer LT40 Super, Treefarmer C4D, CAT 528 swinging grapple, 10ton wheel loader.

Offline JoshNZ

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Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
« Reply #31 on: August 11, 2019, 06:55:12 AM »
I know the theory, short welds and placing so their tension opposes etc it's just not always practical. Short welds never look good with stick it's hard to tie in seemlessly.

Tauranga here Justin.

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Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
« Reply #32 on: August 11, 2019, 07:55:08 AM »
I know the theory, short welds and placing so their tension opposes etc it's just not always practical. Short welds never look good with stick it's hard to tie in seamlessly.

Tauranga here Justin.
Hindsight is everything. If you were to do that weld again, you could put bar stock in between  so when it freezes its restrained from shrinking. you would need a plan to get it out after like heat the bar stock then let it cool, or evenly heat the unit and remove it while hot. you could have also tried heating the plate opposite the weld side. Easier to analyze these issues than to anticipate a problem. 
Making Sawdust, boards and signs.
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Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
« Reply #33 on: August 11, 2019, 02:08:42 PM »
What also work is to heat a section then rapid cool it. that will cause the steel to pull. WOrks great for straightening driveshafts.

Offline JoshNZ

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Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
« Reply #34 on: August 18, 2019, 02:13:36 AM »
Another slow week for me. Got called into work a couple of times and the bearings didn't arrive for 8 days >=(.

Anyway. I welded some plates one to the sleeve one to the other end of the beam. I'd bought some 12mm flat bar 180mm wide I got sick of scraping rust off that bit of scrap. I thought 180 would be wide enough but turns out not, so welded two together with a deep weld and machined the warp out of them.



 


 

Next did the shafts, started with a bit of 40mm 4140 and only had to go down to 38.1 for the bearing journals (1.5"). 38mm for the Wheels. Turned the pulley section to 30mm which was a number I picked out of my head.

They both came out really good which was a relief cause this was going to be easy for me to screw up! All finishing cuts so no chip breaking, I slashed the pad right off my thumb trying to pull strings clear of the last cut... Made the rest of the week pretty difficult.
Both went into the freezer and one slipped into bearing pairs well the next morning, the other I had to drive on and is never coming off but that shouldn't be a problem.



 


 

I added pads and gussets for the jack to sit on and push against. I've got a hydraulic gauge arriving in the mail next week I think I'll just be able to tap into the base somewhere, or the pump cavity.



 


 

I think I'll turn a little socket and weld it to the plate for the jack to press against and maybe cut a small cylinder of rubber engine mount to sit in there. Or I could leave an air bubble in the jack too, as long as it never completely closes (which it can't) it won't bleed it out. I tried this and it gives quite a soft spring effect. Any thoughts? It's quite bouncy if I stand on it.

I added rubber shims to the lifting nuts, has quietened it down a lot and enabled adjustment of alignment. If the lead screw is binding, a quarter turn on one bolt frees it, another quarter binds again. I can set it in the middle and it has freed things up considerably. I'm learning the process/order of things with setup, bearing position, bar levelling, screw torque, all have to happen in the right order as they all affect each other.


 

I got the wheels on and ran a bit of pallet strapping around them just to see how it looks, and I'll be able to cut and measure for a blade length. I sighted along the wheels before tightening up the pillow blocks and the band ran dead straight on the wheels straight off the bat which is pretty encouraging. Means my threads are in the ball park and probably there is some crowning effect working too.

Starting to look like a mill!



 

I will probably get started on the engine mount next. I measured an audio recording of it today and got 3790RPM at full speed. The only centrifugal clutch I can find for 25hp is 140mm diameter so looking at the Band calculator here, I'll need another pulley as big as the band wheel which will only get it down to 5470fpm on the blade. So I'll either need to get the drive pulley way way down and do a belt tensioning clutch, or run a jackshaft, or fork out for another big pulley... Again, any thoughts...?
One thought I had about direct driving is I'll have to hang the engine way off the back of the beam to get the pulleys to line up. Which might be ok it's hard to tell how everything balances now.

My belts only sit up about 1.5mm (1/16") of the pulley lip, is this ok or should I take them down a bit?

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Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
« Reply #35 on: August 18, 2019, 09:07:28 AM »
I have a 19 band wheel with a 14" drive pulley being driven by a 4" centrifugal clutch. My speeds seem perfect.

as foo the 1/16" as long as the blade does not contact the metal wheel your fine but I would not expect 1/16 to last long. A good hot day and some milling will probably push the belt deeper into the groove and could cause you problems. The belt on my wheels holds the blade at least 1/4" above the wheel lips.

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Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2019, 09:20:11 AM »
My belts ride about 1/16" above the pulleys when new.  I wish it was a little more and I'd turn the pulleys down a little if I had a lathe with enough swing.
HM126

Offline Brad_bb

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Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
« Reply #37 on: August 18, 2019, 04:26:26 PM »
Where did your design come from Josh?  Maybe I missed that in a previous post?
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Offline JoshNZ

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Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
« Reply #38 on: August 18, 2019, 05:57:44 PM »
I don't really have a design it is sort of dribbling out of my head as I go, which might be obvious. Lots of looking around here.

It does mean I've run into the odd roadblock - one being that the saw wheels are going to contact the trailer wheels when bottomed out as it is. They're spare car wheels on it now, I think flipping the axle from under slung to over slung and putting 13" trailer rims on it will solve that.

I will take down the pulleys a little going on what you guys are saying. My lathe does have a gap I can remove but I would prefer not to if I can get away without. I was thinking I'll just setup a tool post next to the wheel installed on the sawmill and hit it with a flap disc lightly while spinning somehow. Someone on a crank or I have a geared electric motor there somewhere. Will wait until the pulleys are installed to do that.

Punching those numbers in crusarius you are bang on. Definitely helps to get that drive pulley size down. It will be about $150 minimum to get a clutch to NZ, makes the belt tensioning lever appealing.

Offline JoshNZ

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Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
« Reply #39 on: August 18, 2019, 06:00:50 PM »
Maybe I will just go with a clutch, less mucking around. The best I can find in NZ is one for $140NZ/$90US. But it's 5.5" which means I'll need a 17" driven pulley or jackshaft (which I think would be cheaper).

Anyone know of a better deal..?

There is a used electric ride-on clutch for sale for $90 here maybe that's worth jumping on? No specs on it but ones like it say they are rated for 80ft-lbs which should do it? Edit: Actually it's a TG2000 for a lawn tractor. They're rated 105ft-lbs with a 1" bore or 125ft-lbs with a 1-1/8". The V-twin is 45NM@2600RPM that's only 33ft-lb the engine can produce. I'm not missing anything here am I? Seems a no brainer


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