The Forestry Forum is sponsored in part by:

iDRY Vacuum Kilns


Forestry Forum
Sponsored by:


TimberKing Sawmills



Toll Free 1-800-582-0470

LogRite Tools



Norwood Industries Inc.




Your source for Portable Sawmills, Edgers, Resaws, Sharpeners, Setters, Bandsaw Blades and Sawmill Parts

EZ Boardwalk Sawmills. More Saw For Less Money!

STIHLDealers.com sponsored by Northeast STIHL


Woodland Sawmills

Peterson Swingmills

 KASCO SharpTech WoodMaxx Blades

Turbosawmill

Sawmill Exchange

Michigan Firewood, your BRUTE FORCE Authorized Dealer

FARMA


Baker Products

ECHO-Bearcat

iDRY Wood Lumber Vacuum Drying for everyon

Nyle Kiln Dry Systems




Author Topic: Desireable Characteristics for High Value Aspen Clones?  (Read 2242 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline pmcgover

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 29
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: Desireable Characteristics for High Value Aspen Clones?
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2013, 08:46:57 AM »
What kind of price am I looking for?  I would like to know a ballpark stumpage estimate for 200 board foot aspen veneer trees that have "highly" figured wood, in excellent quality and cover many acres.  I need this value to understand if its feasible to grow aspen for veneer or even high quality logs.  Its the "chicken before the egg" scenario.  I think its possible to breed aspen that can grow to veneer quality in 20 to 25 years, but a "tree farmer" needs to know if its worth it. 

I am betting that most current aspen veneer prices reflect a low quantity of high value veneer logs with highly desirable veneer slicing characteristics.  So if the "ideal" aspen veneer tree were developed and planted in large areas then perhaps it might commoditize aspen veneer using whatever proven clones.  If the mills could tap into a supply of reliable - high quality aspens, then perhaps they would be willing to pay higher prices for it. 


Offline Ron Wenrich

  • Forester
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13925
  • Age: 71
  • Location: Jonestown, PA
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Desireable Characteristics for High Value Aspen Clones?
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2013, 09:40:25 AM »
Then you need to talk to those that use the product.  Namely veneer buyers and veneer users.  If you think you can develop a veneer that has high figure, then find out from those that make the market is they'll be interested.

The problem is that you don't have a product to show the user and you're talking about markets 20-25 years in the future.  Its one of the problems that foresters have when they manage a timber stand for the market.  No one knows what the markets will be that far out, especially when you're talking hardwoods. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Offline mesquite buckeye

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 6103
  • Age: 67
  • Location: Tucson, AZ
  • Gender: Male
  • Trees are good- even ones with stickers
    • Share Post
Re: Desireable Characteristics for High Value Aspen Clones?
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2013, 11:39:49 AM »
Are you doing this on your own, or is this a non-profit or government project? Just curious. ;D
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

Offline pmcgover

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 29
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: Desireable Characteristics for High Value Aspen Clones?
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2013, 12:19:39 PM »
Ok, I agree that I should investigate this from a mill perspective because ultimately, they buy and process the logs. 

Regarding funding.  My "Phase One" research was funded in the early 90's by the DOE in collaboration with ISU.  Since then I had one smaller project funded (2005) by another university.  I have self funded phases 2 and 3 and it looks like 4 will be the same but there are efforts to obtain funding. 

I had to do a lot of crosses in the 90's since we were starting out.  I used an entire floor of a vacated academy to produce crosses in the 90's.  Now I do everything from my house and grow the stuff in my backyard nursery where I test them for a few years.  It's not ideal but works well.  I am fortunate to have cooperators that can conduct the longer term field testing.

Offline mesquite buckeye

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 6103
  • Age: 67
  • Location: Tucson, AZ
  • Gender: Male
  • Trees are good- even ones with stickers
    • Share Post
Re: Desireable Characteristics for High Value Aspen Clones?
« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2013, 02:17:32 PM »
My cooperators get part of the patent royalties. ;D
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

Offline pmcgover

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 29
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: Desireable Characteristics for High Value Aspen Clones?
« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2013, 08:33:36 AM »
I could probably research online this but I will ask you.

Do plant patents prohibit OTHERS from using the patented tree to breed new progeny?

(Perhaps we should take this to a new thread...)

Offline mesquite buckeye

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 6103
  • Age: 67
  • Location: Tucson, AZ
  • Gender: Male
  • Trees are good- even ones with stickers
    • Share Post
Re: Desireable Characteristics for High Value Aspen Clones?
« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2013, 10:46:46 AM »
The answer is that if you read the patent law for plant patents, you are protected from unauthorized use for 20 years. That would include breeding theoretically, but good luck proving somebody else is breeding with your material once it is available. If you wanted to allow breeding by others, you could licence it to them for a set fee or as a royalty from any progeny that they patent as a result. Soon, you will be rich! Well, maybe not, but if it gets popular, you could get a small income from your work. ;D
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

Offline beenthere

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 26932
  • Location: Southern Wisconsin, USA
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Desireable Characteristics for High Value Aspen Clones?
« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2013, 11:49:39 AM »
Quote
(Perhaps we should take this to a new thread...)

Pls keep it here.. much easier to follow along for those of us interested.
south central Wisconsin
 It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Offline pmcgover

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 29
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: Desireable Characteristics for High Value Aspen Clones?
« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2013, 12:19:12 PM »
Thanks for your "experienced" perspective on this. 

I can appreciate why one may want to patent an ornamental tree or perhaps even a forestry clone IF you started with a wild parent - You were the original developer or "finder" of that "trait". 

However, I am a romantic idealist.  While one may have the legal right to patent a given tree, I have "moral" issues with patenting forestry trees that were "touched" by breeders now likely deceased but who have provided a foundation for future improvement.  We know forestry trees have long rotations and must be planted economically.  Much of my stock can be traced to several late breeders who received public funding for their work.  If we are so privileged to improve their materials, then we should get funding for our breeding projects and release any selections as public domain. 

Much of my beliefs on this arise from the Open Source software philosophy or culture.  I will not use proprietary software if there is a usable open source alternative.  Their quality may start low and slow, but over time they often mature to become better than proprietary alternatives.  Sounds like an oak tree doesn't it...

If others do the same then all of Science will benefit as improvements are not impeded by patent restrictions - it can move forward faster versus waiting 20 years for the patent to expire.  My 2 cents...

Offline mesquite buckeye

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 6103
  • Age: 67
  • Location: Tucson, AZ
  • Gender: Male
  • Trees are good- even ones with stickers
    • Share Post
Re: Desireable Characteristics for High Value Aspen Clones?
« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2013, 01:14:37 PM »
How is asking for public funding (tax money, other people's money) morally superior to trying to create something of value and receiving income derived from the sale of the new, valued product?
Public money doesn't come from nowhere. I think the person who invents, builds upon previous invention on his own dime deserves to receive something. Take away incentives and nothing new will come. I don't believe that more government spending is a panacea for anything.
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

Offline pmcgover

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 29
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: Desireable Characteristics for High Value Aspen Clones?
« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2013, 01:24:25 PM »
Yes, I agree that more government over-spending is not a good thing.  I do feel that private funding, perhaps from the corporations that consume these raw materials is a better funding model.

Offline mesquite buckeye

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 6103
  • Age: 67
  • Location: Tucson, AZ
  • Gender: Male
  • Trees are good- even ones with stickers
    • Share Post
Re: Desireable Characteristics for High Value Aspen Clones?
« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2013, 02:22:25 PM »
They would want part of any patents in that case. ;D
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

Offline wisconsitom

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 322
  • Age: 63
  • Location: Appleton, WI
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: Desireable Characteristics for High Value Aspen Clones?
« Reply #32 on: September 08, 2019, 01:57:40 PM »
Older thread, I know, but thought I'd chime in anyway...and in the process, resume participation in the Forestry Forum, which like pretty much all web stuff, I don't do much of during the growing season, hence my multi-months absence on this site:

I'm one of the cooperators with Mr. McGovern's stock.  I currently have three A-G (alba-grandidentata) hybrids from him, started as 12" cuttings, at my tree farm.  All three rooted early this summer.

I very much enjoy working on this project and I have one additional perspective to share with this group.  While I fully agree that securing clones that are easy to root from forestry cuttings, and which will reliably have figured grain in a large percentage of the resulting stems is a great goal, I think it equally worthwhile that these breeding efforts could end up as a means for us in the northern US to continue to have aspen period, as climate warms up.  The addition of P. alba genetics, I think, will add heat-tolerance to these clones that is lacking in pure native aspen species as a rule.  Indeed, aspen-both quaking and bigtooth, are said to be threatened under most climate-change scenarios envisioned for the region.  This is speculation, but is founded on facts occurring on the ground.

I might add, 2 of the clones Patrick sent me have topped out over the protective tree tubes already in their first year from sticking.  Both of these happen to be large-leaved types.  And while it's early in my part of the game, I think I'm going to eventually enjoy seeing clonal stands of these items on my site, most of which is occupied by softwood species-white pine, red pine, Norway spruce, and especially, hybrid larch.  I really like aspen types that have light-colored leaf undersides.  It's an aesthetic thing, but seeing those kinds of trees shimmering in the breeze is magical to me.  I've also got considerable balsam poplar-another tree with the word "poplar" in the common name but which is in fact, an aspen, in the wetter parts of my property.  That's another great tree.

tom


Share via delicious Share via digg Share via facebook Share via linkedin Share via pinterest Share via reddit Share via stumble Share via tumblr Share via twitter

xx
What to do with less than desireable pine?

Started by logboy on Sawmills and Milling

2 Replies
911 Views
Last post August 22, 2011, 08:10:46 PM
by bandmiller2
xx
2 in 1 Sharpener Clones

Started by NorCalKuma on Chainsaws

17 Replies
1204 Views
Last post July 24, 2019, 03:16:24 PM
by Allar
xx
Beware PowerSharp Clones!!!!

Started by Philbert on Chainsaws

2 Replies
377 Views
Last post May 09, 2019, 02:57:00 PM
by Philbert
xx
Characteristics of Pine

Started by fstedy on Drying and Processing

2 Replies
1111 Views
Last post February 16, 2005, 12:38:05 PM
by fstedy
 


Powered by EzPortal