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Author Topic: How much to charge per Mfbm  (Read 757 times)

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Offline Mountain_d

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How much to charge per Mfbm
« on: November 07, 2019, 10:21:31 PM »
In the past I have logged my own 400 acres and cut and skid firewood for a few neighbours. In about a week I will likely begin logging a 100 acre private lot for another landowner close to me. I tree marked the block and know the wood that will be cut is mostly firewood (beech). We are selling the firewood to a local trucker for $600 (Can) a tandem load on the landing. I am splitting the firewood money  50/50 with the landowner. There is about two tractor trailer loads of sawlogs to come out (small percentage of the cut). I suggested we split the logs 50/50 but the landowner wants to pay me $100 per thousand Bd ft to put the log's on the landing (landowner pays the trucking). I find the $100 a little low. What do you guys think is a fair rate to charge per thousand to put saw log's on the landing? The terrain is good, farthest skid is about 3/4 mile. No crossings required. I need to spend a couple hundred to prep the landing. Most of the log's are white pine with 18 to 24 inch butts common. Also some spruce and balsam which avg around 10 inch butt. I think the white pine will avg around $450 per MFBM at the mill. In am located around Ottawa. 
What ya think?  
Mountain. 
1978 TJ 230E 3.9L Cummins 4B, Husky 372XP, Husky 61, Husky 266XP, JRed 625, Husky 265RX clearing saw,  Woodmizer LT40HD 1995, Kubota 4950DT (53hp 4WD), Wallenstein V90 Skidding Winch, John Deere 610 backhoe, 1995 Volvo White GMC WCA42T SA Dump Truck, 2004 Ford F-250SD 4WD, , Central Boiler OW

Offline BargeMonkey

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Re: How much to charge per Mfbm
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2019, 10:35:31 PM »
 What constitutes a tandem load ? 6 cord ?  200 is the break even point, 100 per mdft is starvation money and that's on hardwood not pine. 

Offline Mountain_d

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Re: How much to charge per Mfbm
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2019, 10:47:00 PM »
Tandem is about 6.5 cords. I can see  charging more for hardwood. Maybe $150 / Mfbm for pine? 
1978 TJ 230E 3.9L Cummins 4B, Husky 372XP, Husky 61, Husky 266XP, JRed 625, Husky 265RX clearing saw,  Woodmizer LT40HD 1995, Kubota 4950DT (53hp 4WD), Wallenstein V90 Skidding Winch, John Deere 610 backhoe, 1995 Volvo White GMC WCA42T SA Dump Truck, 2004 Ford F-250SD 4WD, , Central Boiler OW

Offline Southside

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Re: How much to charge per Mfbm
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2019, 12:50:32 AM »
Are you working alone with a chainsaw and cable skidder? If so what can you produce a day? 5MBF? Maybe? So that's $500 / day gross at best? Hard to keep the wolves away at that rate. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
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Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.

Offline Mountain_d

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Re: How much to charge per Mfbm
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2019, 05:40:38 AM »
Yes, just me and a chainsaw and my TJ230. I am thinking about 3500 to 4000 Bd ft a day. 
1978 TJ 230E 3.9L Cummins 4B, Husky 372XP, Husky 61, Husky 266XP, JRed 625, Husky 265RX clearing saw,  Woodmizer LT40HD 1995, Kubota 4950DT (53hp 4WD), Wallenstein V90 Skidding Winch, John Deere 610 backhoe, 1995 Volvo White GMC WCA42T SA Dump Truck, 2004 Ford F-250SD 4WD, , Central Boiler OW

Offline Mountain_d

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Re: How much to charge per Mfbm
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2019, 05:52:51 AM »
Southside, what is the going rate in your area ($US per thousand on the landing)?
1978 TJ 230E 3.9L Cummins 4B, Husky 372XP, Husky 61, Husky 266XP, JRed 625, Husky 265RX clearing saw,  Woodmizer LT40HD 1995, Kubota 4950DT (53hp 4WD), Wallenstein V90 Skidding Winch, John Deere 610 backhoe, 1995 Volvo White GMC WCA42T SA Dump Truck, 2004 Ford F-250SD 4WD, , Central Boiler OW

Offline Southside

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Re: How much to charge per Mfbm
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2019, 06:58:54 AM »
I don't know of anyone who has done it that way. It's either on shares or you bought the timber. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: How much to charge per Mfbm
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2019, 12:01:47 PM »
10cents a boardfoot is what a toothless tennessee hillbilly handcutter gets to run someone elses saw and just lay em off the stump.  Boots and lunch are his only expense.  Your landowner is getting greedy on the sawlogs imo.  

Your landing expense and his trucking expense on the few loads approximately cancel each other out i reckon.  

Tell him 50/50 or he can keep the sawlogs and find another logger to finish the job.  He wont get anyone else to move iron in for 2 loads at 10c/ft.   He will bend. 

Hardwood weighs twice as much and will eat up your fuel so i see no reason why you should touch them for that pay.  
Revelation 3:20

Offline Southside

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Re: How much to charge per Mfbm
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2019, 12:53:55 PM »
Look at it this way. If you want to pay yourself $20 / hour then you need to generate at least $30 / hour to cover taxes, insurance, etc. So to pay yourself $200 / day you need to get 3MBF onto the landing. Now what about fuel, maintenance, moving and owning your skidder? Will $5 - $10 / hour  cover that? Would you rent your skidder and saw for $5- $10 / hour? Because that is what you will be doing at his rate. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.

Offline Maine logger88

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Re: How much to charge per Mfbm
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2019, 12:54:51 PM »
no way I would do it that cheap 150 minimum. 3/4 of a mile is a fairly long skid in my book. Hes already getting the better end of the deal on firewood unless hes helping log it too. Good point southside I usually figure my hourly rate just for reference if I cant make 75 bucks an hour Im not happy. Some of thats on me to make production too but working cheap only makes it worse.  Next time you have a breakdown that costs a grand or too your neighbors not going to pitch in. 
79 TJ 225 81 JD 540B Husky and Jonsered saws

Offline Bandmill Bandit

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Re: How much to charge per Mfbm
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2019, 01:16:14 PM »
Add up the replacement value of ALL the equipment/tools you need/use for the job. Take 1% of that figure and you have your base hourly rate. If for example that number is $50,000.00

Your base rate is $50/hr.

No add up all the consumables required to operate the equipment per hour. Add that straight to the $50/per hour. I'll use $15 as example.

You are now at $65/hr. 

Now add in the value of your labour and any insurance/sundry costs that apply.
I'll use $30 for labour and $15 for the additional costs.

You are now at $110/hour.

Calculate your average MBF per hour and divid the $110 hour rate by that number and you will be with in a penny or 2 of what you need to charge.   
  

     

 
If you ain't livin on the edge you are takin up way to much room. Of course at my age if I get too close to that edge any more theres a good chance I may fall off.
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Offline ehp

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Re: How much to charge per Mfbm
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2019, 01:24:34 PM »
Man, I know your area well and your not going to make any money at that rate , you need to make X number of dollars per day or week . At $300 to you for a load of wood you need to skid at least 2 loads a day to pretty much break even . $120/1000 is the going rate 10 to 15 years ago up in your area

Offline curved-wood

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Re: How much to charge per Mfbm
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2019, 05:04:31 PM »
I live in the Ottawa Valley has well. Around my place, loggers charge around $150 ($canadian)/1000 for cutting and skidding. Might vary a bit according to the quality of the forest and the traveling distance

Offline Mountain_d

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Re: How much to charge per Mfbm
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2019, 10:34:57 PM »
Band mill Bandit, I like your formula. I will work that out. I am thinking the $150 / Mfbm that Curved Wood mention would be getting close. I am surprised how low a wage some loggers work for around my area. I can't see how they survive. No wonder there are so few left that are interested in the smaller private lots. 
1978 TJ 230E 3.9L Cummins 4B, Husky 372XP, Husky 61, Husky 266XP, JRed 625, Husky 265RX clearing saw,  Woodmizer LT40HD 1995, Kubota 4950DT (53hp 4WD), Wallenstein V90 Skidding Winch, John Deere 610 backhoe, 1995 Volvo White GMC WCA42T SA Dump Truck, 2004 Ford F-250SD 4WD, , Central Boiler OW

Offline BargeMonkey

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Re: How much to charge per Mfbm
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2019, 01:48:59 AM »
 My log buyer and I got talking a few weeks ago, I guess they spend some time out to Syracuse at the forestry school figuring out what the starvation rate was on hardwood, I know production softwood is diff but around here if your not making 200 per mdft give or take 10% depending on the job the logger cant survive, yeah you can starve for a while but when enough of your stuff finally breaks your done. Your cutting 6+cord for 300 bucks already puts you at the 100 per mdft range, @ 2xcord per mdft. I make 265 a mdft local, stump to yard AND I keep the firewood and sometimes that doesn't seem like enough when stuff breaks. 

Offline Ed_K

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Re: How much to charge per Mfbm
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2019, 07:41:11 AM »
 Take Bandmill bandit's formula and add a nickel for every 1/4 mile just for wear an tear on your skidder. I'm getting ready to log my maple orchard and a $175.MBF will be deducted from what come out just to pay back what I've spent to rebuild my skidder.
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Offline Bandmill Bandit

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Re: How much to charge per Mfbm
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2019, 02:09:50 PM »
Take Bandmill bandit's formula and add a nickel for every 1/4 mile just for wear an tear on your skidder. I'm getting ready to log my maple orchard and a $175.MBF will be deducted from what come out just to pay back what I've spent to rebuild my skidder.
Good point Ed
I FORGOT the milage factor but I think a nickel is may be bit on the low side.

Also I miss stated the calculation factor. It should be .001 to .0015 times the total equipment value figure. sorry for the confusion.  
If you ain't livin on the edge you are takin up way to much room. Of course at my age if I get too close to that edge any more theres a good chance I may fall off.
2001 Dodge 1500 4x4. 2018 F150
2007 Woodmizer LT40HDG28 almost Super
2 Logrite 36 inch cant hooks and a bunch of stuff I built myself

Offline Stephen

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Re: How much to charge per Mfbm
« Reply #17 on: Today at 12:01:48 PM »
Around here it was roughly 3rds, landowner, cutter, hauler, roadside. High value, landowner may demand a little more than 33%. Low value pulp, landowner may have to take less, just to get the low grade out of the woods. I think this owner is doing good on the firewood, half and doesn't have to get out of bed.
1994 WoodMizer LT40G18. 69 acres mixed wood. 1952 ford tractor, Norse 290 winch, studed Norse ice chains. 45-66DT Fiat.


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