Swingers without guards...

[sigidi]

Recent posts about swingers with guards removed permanently has prompted me to go through my wood pile to search for a missle I recently launched from my swinger...

Will re-post once found...

[sigidi]

Found it...
it is 320mm (just under 13") long and weighs 824g (about 1.8lbs)





and I still have the bottom cant in the mill which this missile came from...



now you can see I have done some adding to the photo to show some frightening points of 'interest'

another view...




now here is some perspective for you all. The red dot is where the missile landed, this was 11 paces from the log I was cutting at the time, I was pushing away from the white circled seats, which are 13 paces from the log. at the time of cutting for some unknown reason I decided to push the horizontal cut from the right side of the log, which for all you swingers out there you'd understand this isn't the normal way of things we work on the left side of the log. Well I just don't know why i went the other side of the log.

THe most scary thing about all of this and the reason for this post, is I work alone, I don't have staff, or helpers generally, but what I do have (much much more importantly) my 2yo, 6yo daughter and my beloved Wifey, who regularly sit on those outlined chairs/seats when I mill.

Now obviously this occured with all my guards in place as they are welded on, and still happened nevertheless. I don't think it's an issue about how many people you employ, as to if your guards should be on or not. And I understand we all take and accepted, educated risk when we saw, so if we hurt ourselves then we can accept that, but I wanted to put it out there that it may not be ourselves...

[Back40x2]

     WOW  that will make you think twice now won't it

That's why where ever I take my mill, I make them stand up behind me; no matter what until the blade has stopped.

[Ianab]

Yes.. I've launched a similar projectile off my mill too. Mine was while cleaning up the right hand side of a layer, and there was basically just a row of knots hanging on by cross grain wood. Because of the width of the log (4 ft) I was standing up on the log while doing a vertical cut back toward me. A chunk like that came out of the blade, hit the mill frame, the log, my knee and then the ground (I'm not sure of the order) No injury but I felt it thru the saw chaps I allways wear.

The Peterson operating manual does tell you where you, your crew and the spectators should be, follow those guidlines. They can throw shrapnel, even with the guards in place.

Ian

[NZJake]

Bystanders must ONLY stand to the right of the operator at LEAST 25 feet away. I always make a habit of pushing to the right of the log when I am cutting open a log that has some very ugly looking knots, this would be the only exception to the pushing/pulling left of the log rule.

It's interesting how that chunk got past the guard? Is there an area that it could have got through horizontally, or was it shot out whilst cutting vertical? I've found the thinner the blade, the more tendancy for the teeth to flex into a chunk and throw it. I've fired off one or two using a microkerf blade before. It's good practise to "almost" cut through leaving the shady piece intact and manualy break it off by hand, saves the risk factor.

[sigidi]

I've drawn a little pic by way of further explanation, the missile came off the left side of the blade as you operate the mill and flew out the back of the mill as per my bewdaful picture...




Edit: sorry about the terrible pic

[Arthur]

Even the EcoSaw which NEVER needs to have its guards removed to do any cut will throw out pieces.  By operating from the side it is almost impossible to connect.

Mind you I am always telling spectators to move from the ends as they become perfect targets crouching down watching the blade.

arthur 8)

[NZJake]

Gidday Arthur, does the Eco have guards for deflection of the horizontal blade? Anyway are you gonna be at the shootout this year with your mill? Should be a few mills running this time round.

Sigidi, I'd be very interested in how that piece got through? I'd be feeling kinda lucky that no one got hit too.

[sigidi]

Jake I'm just so happy none of my girls either young or older where on those seats or even nearby in the yard.

I think the main contributer was the log had a branch coming off which I hadn't cut clean, it had the splt edge from when it was felled...

If I may be indulged on my terrific drawing ability again...



so as I cut it down to get a clear deck, the piece had no timber underneath it as I cut it, so I think it tipped forward on the blade,  got caught and thrown out backward.

Instead of getting the chainsaw out I thought I'd just trim it down with the mill - seemed harmless enough, but that's how some of those terrible stories happen.

[rebocardo]

Wow! That missile/dagger would have hurt big time if it hit someone. It looks downright scary. Glad your family was not in the way when it flew off.

[Arthur]

Gidday Arthur, does the Eco have guards for deflection of the horizontal blade? Anyway are you gonna be at the shootout this year with your mill? Should be a few mills running this time round.

NZJake

We have a swinging guard on both sides which lock into place when the blade is virtical.  The guards are also shaped for deflection.  There are also two fix deflectors on the off side of the cradle.

We are also experimenting with plastic curtains.  The ones you get in butcher shops to the cool rooms.  We have found that because they are strips and if you keep the length not much longer than the height of the blade a lot of small items get stopped.  They will even take the punch out of a loose insert tooth although the stainless steel deflectors take care of this.

Love to be at the shootout just dont know if we have the time or money to be there.

arthur

[DanG]

My MD will hurl a little cutoff, from time to time.  Usually it falls within the boundaries of the mill's frame. Once, it launched a 1x4+slab, which weighed about 15 pounds, about 30 or 40 feet out in front of the mill!   The good thing is, all my blades rotate so that the shrapnel goes away from me.  Unfortunately, the swinger is different, and half the time the stuff is coming back the other way.  Hence the need for all those guards.  From what I've seen, the swingblade mills are quite safe to operate, but like anything else in this business, you gotta be aware of the hazards at all times.

[Ron Wenrich]

You should see what a vertical edger can do with an edging strip or a chunk of wood that falls on a spinning saw.  I've put edging strips through the wall.  We had to put up a piece of steel to save the wall.  I make it a point not to saw if someone is behind the mill.

[Jeff]

Absolutely. The vertical edger in our mill is responsible for the lion's share of projectiles. Its the nature of the circular saw.

[chet]

Even my dinky little 10" cabinet saw can put the fear of God in ya. I won't go into details as to how I know that. 

[JanB]

Hi, We live in the central North Island of New Zealand.  My husband is a 3rd generation sawmiller.  We check this forum every now and then just to see what's happening in the rest of the world.  I've never felt the need to respond to anything - just an interested reader.  However I wish to add my bit to the discussion over the last few days regarding double cutting on Lucas and Peterson mills.

We were getting quite a lot of enquiry for beams and we needed a lightweight mill which could do the job.  Double cutting was a necessity not an option.  We went to Mystery Creek last year and saw both companies.  We got an information pack from both.  We ended up buying a Lucas for two reasons:

1.  When double cutting on the Peterson the instructions were to "remove the safety guard".  Alarm bells immediately went off in my mind - why put safety guards on only to take them off and surely the very words "safety guards" tells you something.  Knowing what OSH is like in this country I couldn't see how this method was approved.

2.   The second resond we bought the Lucas was that none of our employees carry the "neat and tidy" gene - they all have the "take it off and biff it" gene.  I knew that the first time the guards came off a Peterson they would never be put back on because someone would have lost the bits.  Any accident that happened after would land us in the deep brown because OSH would want to know why the guards were taken off.  Turning the powerhead is easy - no grumbles from the troops to date - and it's still got all it's bits intact.  Our mill is performing superbly - it does everything the literature said it would do and we couldn't be happier with our purchase.    JanB

[Ianab]

Hi Jan and Welcome to the forum 

I think the gaurd thing has about been done to death now  ;)

But in answer to point 1, when the Peterson is double cutting the log is effectively between the blade and the operator, I dont think there is a safety issue there.
But  - Having staff that would remove the gaurd and loose it is a valid concern, especially OSH wise. As has been shown shrapnel can get thrown from most circle saws, even with all the gaurds in place, and if it did take an eye out and a guard was missing there might be difficult questions.  :

Glad to hear you are having a good run with the Lucas, I like the swingblade mills in general, and although I prefer the Petersons I know the Lucas is a good machine too.

Cheers

Ian

[Bibbyman]

Welcome to the Forum JanB!

[sigidi]

Well JanB,

I think it is just great that we have flushed out another 'Lurker'  ;)

G'day to you adn all your crew.

just on the dble cutting do you guys do as BIB suggested in:

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=11039.0

basically he does a few horizontals before turning the carriage then finishes them off. In this way he reduces the amount of downtime.

Very interested to know as I may be having to do a lot more dbl beams soon.

[Paul_H]

Welcome JanB

Tell us more about you and your husbands milling operation.From reading your post it seems you bought the swinger for special orders and I was wondering what kind of mill you run regularily,band or circle saw? I'm guessing that the swinger was purchased to compliment your existing milling operation.How big is your crew? Do you manufacture furniture?

What is the main product you produced prior to buying the swinger? I think it would be great to hear some history from a 3rd generation sawyer in NZ as well as pics of course  ;)

I can't wait!

[Ernie]

Welcome JanB

Where are you located in our beautiful country?

Ernie

[arnold]

Seems like I thought we have lots of swingblades in new zealand and then come those Aussie's along with the other 70 countries that Lucas ship to, and top that with the peterson's. That makes for a lot of saws hopefully making money for their owners. Jan nice to hear your mill is performing to your expectations and hope to see you at mystery creeek in june.
I have some photo's that I will post on the forum once I come to grips with this computer.
Arnold