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Author Topic: Brace problem  (Read 2946 times)

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Offline beetle

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Brace problem
« on: April 01, 2005, 06:32:53 AM »
I made a mistake on one of my full cut 4"x6" white Oak corner braces. My posts and beams are all white Pine with 1/2" housed brace pockets so the off set line for the brace point to point measurement is 3/8". On this brace I cut the tenon etc on one end and proceeded to cut the opposite end, however, there was some slight wane on the edge where I needed to mark the  3/8" off set line. To sum up the problem my off set line ended up at 1/2" on this end and I did not catch it untill it was cut. So I have 3/8" on one end and 1/2" on the other with exact point to point at 50 15/16".

What problem is this going to cause when it comes time for fit up and how do I correct it ?? The best I can figure is it will put me out of square ?

Some might say just scrap it and make another, I prefer not to since I am cutting this frame with no power tools, all cuts with hand saws etc. To say the least, this white Oak is hard and could kill a man!! Alot of hand work has gone into these braces so if I can I would like to save it.

Any help and comments would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Jeff
Too many hobbies...not enough time.

Offline etat

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Re: Brace problem
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2005, 09:26:52 AM »
3/8 at one end and 5/8 at the other end would equal 2/8 or 1/4 inch difference.  Split in half would be 1/8 inch off over all from one end to the other on the whole brace, if I'm understanding your measurements correctly.  I would think you could, if you wanted to, pull that small amount into square when needed and temporarly brace it off until enough other materials are fastened to it to hold it in place

I roof LOTS of new houses with MUCH worse measurements than this. 
Old Age and Treachery will outperform Youth and Inexperence. The thing is, getting older is starting to be painful.

Offline beetle

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Re: Brace problem
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2005, 10:05:07 AM »
Thanks cktate,

I am not sure if this will help in mortise and tenon construction. Maybe this ealier post of Jims will help explain my problem, I trust that Jim does not mind.


www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=7436.0]/www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=7436.0[/url]
Too many hobbies...not enough time.

Offline Timber_Framer

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Re: Brace problem
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2005, 10:53:35 AM »
I've screwed up more then one knee brace and what I always do is first kick something so my toe hurts a bit then open a beer. Once the beer is finished I start cutting another brace. That's the only recourse I've ever considered.
They're what square your frame, sure you can rack the frame a bit when you skin it, but as far as I know your braces have to be perfect. Now I will readily admit that there are a lot of guys out there with more framing experience then I and perhaps they will have an idea for you, but as I said I've always just cut another. :(
"If people concentrated on the really important things in life, there'd be a shortage of fishing poles."

Offline Doc

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Re: Brace problem
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2005, 11:01:49 AM »
Call me a dummy. Post a pic of what youa re describing. I can't picture this in my mind, and wantt o know for reference what youa re talking about.

Doc

Offline beetle

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Re: Brace problem
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2005, 12:40:16 PM »
Timber Framer,

I like your solution 8) The root cause of my little error was probably do to the Red Dog, it was the end of the day and the last joint to cut. After 6 down my tape measure was not performing as expected.
Too many hobbies...not enough time.

Offline Timber_Framer

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Re: Brace problem
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2005, 03:50:44 PM »
 :DYa know, I've met more then one tape that couldn't handle his brew :D
Looks like you need a new drinkin partner ;D
"If people concentrated on the really important things in life, there'd be a shortage of fishing poles."

Offline Jim_Rogers

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Re: Brace problem
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2005, 05:29:29 PM »
Jeff:
If you're point to point distance is 50 15/16", as it should be on a 36" brace layout, then you're ok.
There isn't any problem with the 1/2" off set. The brace will stick out a little more above the surface of the post or beam it connects to. If you have a problem it will show up a the time of full scale fit up. At that time you can correct any problems.
You might see the shoulders aren't flush to the housings and if so, you can shim them if you choose.
With square rule joinery, any brace will fit in any location. Put this brace up high in the barn where no one will see it.
And don't worry about it now.
Just don't let it happen again. :D


Jim Rogers

Doc:
Read the story about brace layout problems. That should explain to you what's going on.
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Offline beetle

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Re: Brace problem
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2005, 06:39:31 PM »
Jim,

As always thank you for your input. I do not want to trash this brace, actually I am looking forward to getting these done and the white Oak in my past! That stuff is tough, after cutting all the white pine I can understand why I have read in the books that pine is the preffered stock for working.

PS. I may have another problem, I will make that a new post.
Too many hobbies...not enough time.

Offline JoeyLowe

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Re: Brace problem
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2005, 07:40:57 PM »
Hey Jim:

I have a brace problem question for you too!  Please give me an idea of how to address this or what to look for.  If you have an 8" x 8" beam that is to be housed back to 7 1/2" x 7 1/2" and your braces are cut true (meaning that the 45 degree angles are accurate and that the lengths are correct), but when joined to the beam a gap exists between where the brace meets the housing (I hope this is clear).

This is not a huge gap, maybe an 1/8" or at most 1/4" and the gap runs parallel to the housing and to the brace edge. It is almost as if too much was cut out for the housing.  I am taking my housing measurements off of the reference edge, and if I understand correctly, by doing this, you will always take a full 1/2" housing (if this is your frame rule) out of the reference edge (if a brace is placed on the reference edge) and if other braces are joined away from the reference edge, you would still take your measurement off of the reference edge and that housing could be more or less than 1/2".  I'm sure that there is a simple explanation for the gaps, but I'm not seeing what that answer is.
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Joey Lowe

"Working towards perfection has to be a part of anything one does.  You've got to put yourself into it." ... Sam Maloof (chairmaker)

Offline Jim_Rogers

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Re: Brace problem
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2005, 09:47:23 AM »
Joey:
If the 8x8 is a beam (which means it's a horizontal timber, not a post) then the reference edge is usually the top surface, usually on the outside of the building or the side mentioned in your general frame rules. Then the measurements for the housings are 7 1/2" down or over from this edge.
If this housing is on the reference edge, as some of yours are, due to your design, then the housing should be 1/2" deep measured from the surface.
Also, to determine where the problem is you need to inspect and correct the working points for the three locations where the brace pockets are laid out from.
One point is the corner where the 90° is, the second point is down or over from that point exactly 36" (or what ever your layout is), and the third point is the same measurement over from the first point on the beam.
It's possible your housing aren't laid out in the correct spots which would account for the gap, if your brace is the correct length.
You could check your brace length from the point on each end that it is truly the hypotenuse of the triangle.
These points are on the 3/8" layout line where the bearing end and the should line cross. Read the brace layout thread again if you have problems understanding the layout.
Also, if you can't find the solution, post some pictures for us to understand the problem.
Which brace is this one that's giving you the problem? What location on your frame?
Hope this helps.
Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Offline JoeyLowe

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Re: Brace problem
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2005, 10:17:44 AM »
Hi Jim:

I figure it has to be at the 90 degree intersection, although one picutre below shows the obvious problem.  (too much wood removed).  I knew that the reference edge of the beam was on the top outside edge and the reference edge of the post is on the south outside edge, so I've been measuring from those edges correctly.  This only occurred on the northern most bent on the eastern most post .

Here are the pics.



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Joey Lowe

"Working towards perfection has to be a part of anything one does.  You've got to put yourself into it." ... Sam Maloof (chairmaker)

Offline Jim_Rogers

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Re: Brace problem
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2005, 10:35:24 AM »
Joey:
If this is going to show, you might want to make up a special brace and custom fit it to this location.
If it's not going to show as the housings are on the outside of the frame, then just shim the gap with some small pieces of wood to make the frame true to it's layout dimensions and let it go. You might have to also shim the bearing end of the tenons to insure it's tight.
Good luck,
thanks for the pictures.
Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Offline JoeyLowe

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Re: Brace problem
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2005, 12:23:05 PM »
 ;D (snicker, snicker, nudge, grin)  Thats' exactly what I did since it ain't gonna show anyway.  More important things going on to worry about a little gap that no one will know even exists.
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Joey Lowe

"Working towards perfection has to be a part of anything one does.  You've got to put yourself into it." ... Sam Maloof (chairmaker)

Offline Jim_Rogers

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Re: Brace problem
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2005, 07:38:47 PM »
That's the beauty of housing every joint. Only one side shows.

Jim
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension


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