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Author Topic: Sapstain control / preservatives  (Read 3295 times)

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Offline Wudman

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Sapstain control / preservatives
« on: April 22, 2005, 10:32:40 AM »
I'm about to start peeling logs for my new house.  I'm very concerned about potential sapstain (blue stain).  Does anyone have any thoughts on the commercially available control agents?  I've looked at "Penetreat" and "Boracol" (as well as their home blended generics) for borate treatment, and "Log Keeper" and "TM-5 First Treat" for sapstain and UV protection.  Has anyone used any of these products and have input? 

Do you feel that there is any advantage to using a glycol based preservative (Boracol)  as opposed to a water based one (Penetreat)?

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Wudman

Online Don P

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Re: Sapstain control / preservatives
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2005, 06:18:06 PM »
There are 3 ways to beat bluestain, deny it air, deny it moisture, or poison the food. I've heard people on both sides of whether borates are good sapstain preventative, when I've used them we have also done things to get the wood dry and the glycol I use is poison. They seemed to work but there is more than one thing going on.

I've used homebrew borates for some time. Glycols do make a big difference in drying time. With water alone the wood can be dry again in an hour, you can repeatedly hit it but the water isn't going very deep.  With glycol I've kept a wet edge for a month. Borates travel in by diffusion, on the wet, the slowed drying time is supposed to get them in deeper. I think that its worth it. Boracare and Shellguard are a couple of others

 Some glycols are non toxic, some are poison, ethylene glycol for one. At first glance people steer away from the word poison. It is also poison to fungi, so I use the ethylene glycol.
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Offline beetle

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Re: Sapstain control / preservatives
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2005, 08:17:01 PM »
I have had experiance with blue stain of freshly milled Pine.  Get the surface dry as soon as possible and hit em with a borate/boric solution before you sticker and stack with good air flow. The stuff is hard to control and probably impossible to stop once it gets going. I have read and it worked for me that if you get the moisture content below a certian percent (can't remember the number)it will not grow. My timbers stained on the interior a little, but I was able to stop, or shall I say "reduce" the staining on the surface by unstacking 4000 bf of timbers, laying them all out and spraying with the above mentioned solution. I then let them lay out for in the sun for a couple days before I re-stacked. I have posted the solution mix here on this forum on another thread, it is a Naval spec.

I suspect that there are a few who may cringe at the thought of leaving  timbers lay in the sun, but, I had to do something and it worked.


Good luck with your project.
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Offline Engineer

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Re: Sapstain control / preservatives
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2005, 08:54:08 PM »
You guys have to tell me :

WHERE DO YOU GET THE STUFF?   ???

I have asked at the local feed store, Tractor Supply, hardware stores and other places and nobody can tell me where to get boric acid/borate spray treatment.  I have to treat my entire frame and the ICF foundation it's on. 

HELP!


Online Don P

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Re: Sapstain control / preservatives
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2005, 11:24:32 PM »
I get Solubor, the agricultural form of DOT from the local farm supply, the local co-op also has it. Ask for Solubor by name there, they will not know it as a borate wood treatment, it is sold there as a soil or fertilizer ammendment.

Below are links to the Tim-bor and Solubor pages on the US Borax website. About half the worlds borate products come out of their mine in CA. Notice the chemical composition of both products is the same.
http://www.borax.com/wood/pdfs/Tim-bor_Profile.pdf
http://www.borax.com/agriculture/files/products/ProductSpecs/Solubor.pdf

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Offline beetle

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Re: Sapstain control / preservatives
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2005, 11:26:26 PM »
Found it.... This is per US Navy specifications:

65% water.
20% Borax.
15% Boric acid.

Heat the above slightly to dissolve, this will give you the maximum solubility of borates in water. I bought the Boric acid from McMaster Carr., the Borax from Giant Eagle, and water from the city of Hiram.

It did work.
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Online Don P

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Re: Sapstain control / preservatives
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2005, 12:20:38 AM »
I saw Beetle's recipe in the same article that told about Solubor, Journal of Light Construction, sometime last century  :-\. If you have trouble getting it one way, try the other. Solubor was just convenient for me and avoided mixing.

I look at borates as kind of like curing a ham, bed it in salt, and these are all ways of getting the same salt, and let it suck up all it can. I guess from there I wanted better penetration so I went to brining my logs ;D. To a 5 gallon batch of saturated solution I've been using about a half gallon of anti freeze, that does slow the drying down alot.  If you look up Bora-care, thats what it is. RV anti-freeze would give you a non toxic glycol.

I've read somewhere that with just the water carrier, dip diffusion was supposed to be for 3 minutes. Then the load is dead stacked and tarped for some period  ??? to slow drying, then stickered and dried.
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Offline Wudman

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Re: Sapstain control / preservatives
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2005, 01:37:22 PM »
Don,

Have you used any products specifically aimed at sapstain?  "Log Keeper" and "TM-5 First Treat" are two that I have looked into.  Also, do you do anything to provide UV protection?  Thanks for your help.

Wudman

Online Don P

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Re: Sapstain control / preservatives
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2005, 08:51:45 PM »
My pleasure Wudman, somewhere along the way I crossed paths with a termite guy who was an advocate of borates. He was talking about a water based non toxic bugicide and fungicide...and I looked at him like he was out of his cotton picking mind. I started reading up on them and using them and have, I fear, become that guy  :D.

No to both your questions  :-\. I think Sawmill and Woodlot has ads for some others also. My understanding is they work from the poisoning the food supply end.
I had never considered UV protection for the construction period, most finishes have UV inhibitors . What am I losing in that time?
A laborer works with his hands
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An artist uses his brain, his hands, and his heart

Offline Wudman

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Re: Sapstain control / preservatives
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2005, 10:20:23 AM »
Thanks Don.  Your help is really appreciated.  I think I am leaning toward a glycol based "homebrew" for my work.  Take care.

Wudman


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