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Author Topic: comments on Mark Twain forest plans  (Read 7003 times)

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Online beenthere

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Re: comments on Mark Twain forest plans
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2005, 10:12:11 AM »
jrdwyer
Very well said (meaning I believe you are right on). I think there are (at least were) well-managed National Forests until outside forces started treating them like they were National Parks. Big mistake, IMO.

Gary_C
The BWCA had similar treatment (i.e. lack of) the Mt St. Helens disaster. Private lands cleaned up, but nothing done to salvage on Forest Service land. "Let's do nothing to see what it will look like" and now another "Park" is created.

Not mentioned yet in the good discussion here, are the large areas of National Forest lands isolated as "Wilderness Areas".  Or the Alaska NF forests closed to cutting, except what was turned over to the "Indians" so they could clear their land, only to then exchange their cleared land for un-cut FS land, and now are clearing that.

We have National Parks (good idea) and National Forests (good idea) and both have their place (IMO), and then add the Wilderness areas that some feel no one else should visit.  Let the foresters manage (and I like the privatizing idea here real well). I like to see a well managed forest, and don't like to see the disaster areas that result from no management. But until we are not the "rich" nation, we will go elsewhere for our timber needs, making other nations the better for it until they decide otherwise.

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Offline Rocky_Ranger

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Re: comments on Mark Twain forest plans
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2005, 06:12:33 PM »
Ill give you a short perspective from a District Rangers (USFS) point of view, look at the discussion thread and the variability of thoughts on a pretty easy topic.  Now expand that to include all things forest (like recreation, wildlife, forage, water, & timber) management with 270 million clients. 

I manage about 375,000 acres (yeah right my people mange it) and deal with these very issues on a day by day account.  Like The Greatest Good asks, whose greatest good?  I try to manage to everyones (and it seems at times no ones) wishes.  Forest Plans are a way of getting your voices heard.  If you dont respond to these outreaches and you dont like the outcome, its your own fault!
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Online beenthere

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Re: comments on Mark Twain forest plans
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2005, 06:29:38 PM »
Rocky_Ranger
And what do you think the National Forest should be managed for?
Seeing as that it can't be equally managed for everybody, IMO.

I say timber #1, water #2, forage #3, wildlife #4, and recreation bottom of the list. A cascading priority with timber and water near equal at the top. No wild horses. No saving of endangered species.  Now, this is just one opinion that I have.  :)
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Offline Larry

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Re: comments on Mark Twain forest plans
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2005, 07:40:39 PM »
I met a Rocky Ranger from Colorado while back...great big guy with white hair.  Your not him are ya?

Beenthere, I never noticed you had an opinion. ;D

If we could agree on what a healthy forest is, wouldnt be a bit hard to figure out when a forest needs management help.  IMHO if the forest is healthy everything falls into place.  Timber production, water, forage, and a good home for the critters.
Larry

Nine out of ten trees recommend wood for your building project.

Offline Cedarman

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Re: comments on Mark Twain forest plans
« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2005, 08:11:59 AM »
We need to get rid of the notion good or bad.  That is a human way of thinking.  Good or bad for what? A gun is neither good or bad. It can be used for good or bad, right. But again just what is the meaning of good or bad. Many people just assume that nature does nothing but good. Mount Saint Helens blowing up, just natural, therefore good.  Humans clearcut a mountainside, bad, because humans did it.

Nature does not give a squat about good or bad. Physical and chemical and living processes go on based on laws set in motion at the time of the big bang or creation of our universe.

Our forests are going to react to the things that happen in them. If we cut trees, new ones will take there place. If a disease goes through, there may be a fire and new ones will grow.  If it is a super hot fire, the ground may not return to its present condition for 10,000 years, but the underlying rock will decay, dust will be blown in and new soil will form.

A forest management plan will definitely not please everyone. There is really no rush for most of the forest except where diesease and insects are running rampant if we want to salvage the timber. IMHO is really doesn't matter what the plan is, so long as there is a plan.  Nature is going to adapt to any human plan the second it is implemented.

Humans are part of nature, it is just that we remember the past.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

Offline Jeff

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Re: comments on Mark Twain forest plans
« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2005, 09:12:08 AM »
Cederman, I love that post.
Just call me the midget doctor.
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Offline Cedarman

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Re: comments on Mark Twain forest plans
« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2005, 07:13:01 AM »
Thank You, Jeff.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

Offline Rocky_Ranger

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Re: comments on Mark Twain forest plans
« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2005, 11:52:55 AM »
No I ain't the Ranger you met.  I'm kind'a medium build and not gray headed yet, but stunningly good looking <grin>. 

As for my placement of resources I'd have to qualify it by saying where you are talking about.  For the most part, everything in this Region with the exception of the Black Hills, I'd rate #1 Recreation, #2 Water, #3 Wildlife,#4 Range, and Timber #5.  In the South I'd rate #1 Timber, #2 Wildlife, #3 Recreaton, #4 Range, and Water #5.  In the Pacific Northwest - # 1 Timber, #2 Wildlife, #3 Recreaton, #4 Range, and # 5 Water unless you were east of the Cascades and then I'd put Range as #1.  I can't speak to anywhere else.

Someone mentioned the economics of this stuff and the need to not consider it in long range planning.  I disagree, we have a new "Boss Hog" in the White House and I really like his emphasis on turning - if not profits, at least to break even stance.  I'm talking Federally here, individual rights for managing ones own property is sacred, but we should be looking out for the taxpyer.  We are surrounded by ski areas - Aspen, Vail, Copper Mountain, Brekenridge, and Monarch, just to name a few.  These things rake in more revenue in a year than timber would in 20-30 years.  We take in on this District over $250,000 in the three summer months just on camping an picnicing.  Manage toward the best return in demands and returns on investments, with regards to the natural environment and ya can't go wrong!
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Online beenthere

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Re: comments on Mark Twain forest plans
« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2005, 12:25:18 PM »
Rocky_Ranger
Thanks for your thoughts. I can handle them, and have no problem with what you said.
You get my vote.  ;D
south central Wisconsin
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Offline farmerdoug

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Re: comments on Mark Twain forest plans
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2007, 10:22:59 PM »
This thread is an interesting read.

I only have one thing to say, when it was said that mother nature can take care of the forest by herself, I agree.  But that means no intereference at all as in no spraying and no fire fighting.  A healthy forest needs fire too.  We like to stop forest fires but then expect a status quote on everything else.  Eventually nature will have those fires anyways and they will burn it all down to the ground with the built up fuel load we let accumulate on the floor.

Farmerdoug
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Offline snowman

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Re: comments on Mark Twain forest plans
« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2007, 09:28:43 AM »
I hesitate to comment on forest management in the east, it's a different ecosystem than out west but out here fire was the natural thinner. When white man got here and started controlling fire, stems per acre went from 20 too 200. A thick forest isn't the norm here but people have seen that so long they think it is and freak out when a logging job leaves 20 trees per acre.Just my 2 cents on the issue.

Offline UrbanLogger

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Re: comments on Mark Twain forest plans
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2007, 11:47:07 AM »
Since this whole thread started because of a Heartwood "action alert" regarding the Mark Twain NF, I thought it would be appropriate to let y'all know that Heartwood will be holding its annual "Forest Council" at a camp on the Black River near Lesterville, MO over the memorial day weekend.

The theme for this year's Heartwood meeting is "Localism: Answering Globalism".

Confirmed presenters at the gathering include:

Clint Trammel - Forest Manager, Pioneer Forest

Russ Kremer - President, Missouri Farmers Union

Charlie Stockton - Loan Fund Manager for FORGE (Financing Ozarks Rural Growth and Economy)

Marti Crouch - Ph.D. Biologist and Consultant on Biotechnology and Agriculture

Gary Anderson The Forest School/ Integrated Forest Management. Gary is a horse breeder, horse logger, sawmiller and shitake grower Rough Creek Farm

Nancy Smith Board President of Ozark Quality Hardwood Cooperative

I'll be there and hope some of you "show mes" will come, too. Feel free to PM me for more info.

Scott Banbury, aka UrbanLogger

 
Scott Banbury, Urban logger since 2002--Custom Woodworker since 1990. Running a Woodmizer LT-30, a flock of Huskies and a herd of Toy 4x4s Midtown Logging and Lumber Company at www.scottbanbury.com

Offline Bill

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Re: comments on Mark Twain forest plans
« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2007, 12:46:52 PM »
Being mostly a firewood cutter from the east while visiting and traveling the country I have precious little to base an opinion on - 'cepting hopefully some (un)common sense. I also have grown very distrustful of mega-corporations/big business of late. So I have a couple questions which may or may not be worth answering . . .

Why does the USFS build the roads into the forest for the logging companies ? ( I've seen huge tracts - you know like bigger than Rhode Island - of private forest in Maine that had their own built roads ).

Why doesn't the USFS auction off many smaller tracts instead of a couple large tracts ? ( Seems when you auction off a large tract only people with large pockets - spell that beaucoup cash - can play that game - spell that big business with big lobbyists ? ) ( I could have a big problem with rules that let only big business play while the average Joe is "locked out" )

My own note : when you "lock out" the little guy you also prevent him from bidding the price up - certainly doesn't hurt that big corp methinks - I always thought more buyers and sellers made for a fairer/healthier market for all ?  ?  ?

Is there a reason these lands have to all be multiple use ? ( It might make sense to divvy the land into areas for snowmobiles/horses/mtn bikes/hunting and logging and something wild ? ? ? - just asking here since maybe giving each purpose its own space was one way Mom used to stop us kids from fighting  ;D  )

Good thread - very interesting reading


Offline jim king

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Re: comments on Mark Twain forest plans
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2007, 01:02:08 PM »
Being originally from NW Wisconsin and traveling back there ocasionaly from here in the Amazon I find it quite impressive how the DNR and associated govt. groups are managing both the flora and fauna.  I think you can say it is world class.

Here we have  dogooder movements such as the WWF  that feel gooder  everytime they get another donation on the basis of some lie and do NOTHING positive.

The choice is clear, let the USFS do its work.


Offline Greg

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Re: comments on Mark Twain forest plans
« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2007, 01:24:16 PM »
Thanks Scott for the update on Heartwood, I am beginning to think you and I think WAY too much alike ;-)

Its funny, after I started this thread almost 2 years ago, the discussion went dormant for months and months, and now all of the sudden spark of new posts. I'd forgotten completely about it...

Greg
Since this whole thread started because of a Heartwood "action alert" regarding the Mark Twain NF, I thought it would be appropriate to let y'all know that Heartwood will be holding its annual "Forest Council" at a camp on the Black River near Lesterville, MO over the memorial day weekend.

The theme for this year's Heartwood meeting is "Localism: Answering Globalism".

Confirmed presenters at the gathering include:

Clint Trammel - Forest Manager, Pioneer Forest

Russ Kremer - President, Missouri Farmers Union

Charlie Stockton - Loan Fund Manager for FORGE (Financing Ozarks Rural Growth and Economy)

Marti Crouch - Ph.D. Biologist and Consultant on Biotechnology and Agriculture

Gary Anderson The Forest School/ Integrated Forest Management. Gary is a horse breeder, horse logger, sawmiller and shitake grower Rough Creek Farm

Nancy Smith Board President of Ozark Quality Hardwood Cooperative

I'll be there and hope some of you "show mes" will come, too. Feel free to PM me for more info.

Scott Banbury, aka UrbanLogger

 


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