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Author Topic: Logging roads  (Read 2278 times)

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Offline GlennCz

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Logging roads
« on: July 21, 2005, 09:17:03 PM »
After I purchased my property I put in a few miles of dirt roads to access it.  My questions has to do with wetlands.  In my forest there are no swamps, but there are some wet hemlock areas and the access road is puddling in places.  Is there any law against putting some stone on the road.  My property, but moist areas.  Are there wetlands laws to worry about.  I need to firm up the road a bit.  (I know the loggers might rip it up again, but we'll try anyway) Anything would be better than the 15 ruts on my neighbors property that were the result of his logging. 

Offline David_c

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Re: Logging roads
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2005, 10:17:31 PM »
2 choices one you already have the road there just do what you need to to fix it. 2 contact the dnr and find out the laws. problm with second is if you are already in violation.

Offline beenthere

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Re: Logging roads
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2005, 10:21:38 PM »
Did you put the roads in with ditch's and drainage (culverts), so the water can move away from the road bed?

Or, did you just clear a path through the woods and have no high land to drive on?  

Putting in roads is an art, and it is important that the water cannot sit under them. Mud will surely result.  ::)

I'd be careful about who I ask about wetlands, and would try to go around any if possible.

Last year a neighbor (town chairman) had some logging done to conform to his 'managed woodland' management plan. A state forester visited after the logging was finished, and found tree tops in a ditch. He commented that those tops would have to be removed from the navigable stream. "What stream?", the town chairman asked. The forester "the one that shows on this map as a blue line."  Town chair then asked the state where and how that small ditch became labeled as a navigable stream, which brought out a State DNR person. At the time, a 6" snowfall had melted and there in the bottom of the ditch was some ice accumulated in a small depression. That was proof for the DNR to say it was a navigable stream. Used to be the definition for 'navigable' was to float a canoe down the stream. Now, the DNR says it is a kayak. When asked if one man or two man kayak, the DNR person didn't know. But this was now a navigable stream. That drainage goes probably near to two miles before there is even seasonal water flow more than 24 hours after a rain.
(Sorry to get off track, but thought it was pertinent to the question about wetlands, and what might happen if a State 'employee' came upon your dirt road).
south central Wisconsin
 It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Offline GlennCz

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Re: Logging roads
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2005, 08:21:49 AM »
oh I forgot to mention this was my "friends" roads I was talking about. 

As far as DCNR goes, I was trying to ask the stone question here without calling DCNR, do you think I want to go to the trouble of buying a phone card and driving two towns over to make my call at a public phone???

You guys deal with this everyday, can't someone tell me if you can legally dump stone on your own property on a dirt road to firm it up???  Before I dump stone AYNWHERE, does this mean I have to get an official to look at the terrain and let me know what I can do and how to do it???




Offline beenthere

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Re: Logging roads
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2005, 09:17:17 AM »
I think you have the 'picture'  :) ;D
One just thinks it is 'your own' property.  Some would like even more control over what you do, and they make strides to get what they want right along nowadays. Even take your property if more 'tax' can be gleaned from it for a different use.
As the population grows, so will those who can't live where you do (and I do), but vote and want to 'use' all the land. Remember the song 'This land is your land, this land is MY land, from CA to the NY island'.  They weren't kidding, IMO.  :)

I suspect there are many newly hired, young adults now working for the state, fresh out of college, just waiting to protect your wetlands from any encroachment with dumped stone, and also ready to make a 'name' for themselves on the new job. Some older types too still trying to use their gov't job to keep us all in line as well.  Hey, it aint pretty, but it is real.  :(
south central Wisconsin
 It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Offline Thehardway

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Re: Logging roads
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2005, 09:36:33 AM »
Glenn,

Sounds like you may need a permit.  It probably would be a GP7, 8 or 9.

http://164.156.71.80/VWRQ.asp?docid=0442d740780d00000000088900000889&context=2&backlink=WXOD.aspx%3ffs%3d0442d740780d00008000085600000856%26ft%3d1

Call the name of the agent for your area listed at the bottom of the PDF.

I would try installing some geotextile fabric and then putting gravel on top of that.  It prevents the stone from sinking in the dirt and helps distribute the load weight placed on the road. If you just put in stone it will dissappear every time it rains. The fabric is cheaper than what you will pay for your gravel deliveryeach time it sinks out of sight.   The other advantage is that if anyone does say anything it makes it much easier to return to it's "previous state" by just removing the stone off the fabric and taking up the fabric.

Most state laws allow "temporary" roads and bridges for extraction of timber or minerals but it must be returned to it's "previous state" upon completion of the extraction operation.  This link will help you determine whether or not you have a "wetland"

http://164.156.71.80/VWRQ.asp?docid=0442d740780d00000000086400000864&context=2&backlink=WXOD.aspx%3ffs%3d0442d740780d00008000085600000856%26ft%3d1

good luck!
Norwood LM2000 24HP w/28' bed, Hudson Oscar 18" 32' bed, Woodmaster 718 planer,  Kubota L185D, Stihl 029, Husqvarna 550XP

Offline GlennCz

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Re: Logging roads
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2005, 09:57:08 AM »
now that is what i call "service"!  Exactly the kind of info i am looking for.

Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: Logging roads
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2005, 12:32:46 PM »
I think you'll find that most logging roads only need to be retired, not put back to the original condition.  Retired means that they are put back into grass and have the appropriate water bars to prevent erosion.

As for stone, I don't know who's going to stop you.  You could also go the natural route and make a corderoy road by placing limbs across the road.  It helps hold it together.

This wetlands stuff is pretty amazing.  Most of the guys who go out there designate wetlands by the types of weeds that are growing there.  They don't know a whole lot about normal progression, especially as it relates to woodlands.  They ought to worry more about acid mine runoff before they tackle those small "wet" spots.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Offline Larry

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Re: Logging roads
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2005, 01:12:19 PM »
In Missouri if you violate any wetland regulations it will make the property and property owner ineligible for any government aid programs past, present, and future.

You can bet your sweet bibby if there is any crops on that land either the landowner or tenant is in some kind of farm program.

No involvement with farm programs and ya can do anything you please with the wetland.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Offline bull

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Re: Logging roads
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2005, 08:12:38 AM »
Im a member of my local con comm. and the county FSA board.
   Watch out for neighbors, vernal *(Fools)* and *( vernal pools)*... identify them and stay away.... As for your road, it exists so maintain it. as for skid trails use them as needed and prevent erosion as needed..... Wetland crossings are your major concern... Do you have a forestry plan, roads should be part of your plan...  Use the resources provided by you local NRCS office. NRCS can also assist w/ agricultural exemption. W/ a management plan forestry practices are exempt from many of the limits that the average Joe is restricted by.
There are also cost sharing plans for what your are doing if indeed you have a wetland issue. if it is just a depression that holds water after a weather related issue build your base with large rock and work out in smaller aggregate layers..... go below average frost depth or at least to well draing soils.....   drainage and sloping will also help. good luck


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