something to think about.... what are you worth to America?

jjmk98k · August 30, 2005, 09:33:38 PM

Hey guys, I know I have not been around too much over the summer. I have been quite busy around the house, camp and generally, not spending too much time on the computer ( some of you might know otherwise ;) )

anyway... as of 3:15 last friday, I found out just what I am worth to this nations defense as I watched C-span. We were all gathered around TV's at work as the BRAC commission voted to close Willow Grove Naval Air Station / Joint Reserve Base.... My heart just sunk... This is where the 111th Fighter Wing, My unit..... flys and operates out of...

After 12 years of faithful service I sat and watched a bunch of bean counters decided I no longer needed a place to work...

as of now, I'll be employed by the air guard till 2009... but what then? nothing like having the end looming over your head for years.... work is like a day to day funeral... and since we are all DoD employees, NOT full time active air force, the "shipping off to another base" Just does not happen

I just have to wonder, how much more can they gut out our Military?

sorry, just had to vent a little. >:(

Tom · August 30, 2005, 09:42:58 PM

That's worth a vent.

I have a neighbor that is pretty much in the same situation. His base isn't closing but he works practically day-to-day.

You should see the hole that the closing of Cecil Field here has left. The city fathers are trying to keep the economy going by turning it into an industrial park/agricultural show field among other things. I found the other day that the Feds are still flying planes into there. They contract the field and pay for each touch and go.

Dan_Shade · August 30, 2005, 09:46:23 PM

the big picture is the money is not there to support it, it goes to other places deemed more necessary.

the small end of it sucks when it effects you. things change, defense strategies change, keep current or go under. most areas that have been previously brac'd have made out just fine.

Captain · August 30, 2005, 09:49:24 PM

Sorry to hear about your base.

Your question is a good one, one that leaves me with unsettling answers.

CAPTAIN

Tom · August 30, 2005, 10:12:52 PM

This calls to mind the saying. "A minor operation is one that happens to someone else. A major operation is one that happens to you".

I don't like the demise of our armed forces because I don't trust China. North Korea, Iran and those other "threats" are nothing but an itch if we were to decide to just get rid of them. China is a different story. We best have the means to defend ourselves or they might decide that it would be easier to build their stuff here than there and ship it. People that are concerned over the length of time we are spending in Iraq will be amazed at the length of time China will spend in the USA.

Dan_Shade · August 30, 2005, 10:19:25 PM

well, the thing is, china would have to get here, and we have a pretty darn good navy...

there was a LOT of effort put into the BRAC data and such, but like you said tom, it does suck when it hits you.

jjmk98k · August 30, 2005, 10:28:59 PM

yeah, we have a good navy, but a better Air Force :D

and its a classic "I never thought it would happen to me"

redpowerd · August 31, 2005, 06:44:50 AM

isnt it just more of consolidating for efficiency? i think the clinton years hacked the military so bad that this was the only way to recoup. pretty sad how were still paying for that party in the 90's

SwampDonkey · August 31, 2005, 07:21:18 AM

I think the only Air bases we have left since the Mulrooney years is CFB Greenwood, Shearwater and Gagetown. They closed up all others in the 80's in Maritimes and cut way back in the 90's (exclude NF). Since the demise of the COLD WAR it's basically a skeleton crew.

twoodward15 · August 31, 2005, 07:34:53 AM

I feel your pain. We were in limbo, but fortunately for us we found out on Saturday that we were saved. AC is picking up 6 more 16's. I know you probably don't want to move over here but at this point it's a job and it'll pay the bills. I think everyone in general is pretty upset about how a lot of the BRAC went, especially us Guard and Reserve guys. Did you see how fast they blew through us? It was awful. Kind of like we didn't matter or count.

OneWithWood · August 31, 2005, 10:03:41 AM

I recently read an article, I think Time magazine last week, that explored what happens to communities where base closings have happened in the past. The communities that weathered the closures and in many cases came out ahead did not spend a lot of time wringing their hands but instead ferreted out the opportunites ahead of them.
What's done is done. Look ahead and plan for your future. I hate to sound so cold ( I am not a Republican, honestly ;) ) but that is your best course of action.

Roxie · August 31, 2005, 12:13:02 PM

I have very good memories of Willow Grove Air Base. My son was a Naval Sea Cadet and we spent a lot of hours up there.
It's not really OVER yet, because Ed Rendell is taking the matter to the court because he has to approve a base closing in "his" state! I sure can understand how sad you feel, but don't give up....and ya have four years to find another job. Some people don't get that option!

Don_Papenburg · August 31, 2005, 11:30:03 PM

Why haven't we closed any bases over seas?
After 9 11 I would think that the fools would see the need to be able to scramble a couple of fighter jets from anywhere in this country to any other place in a matter of minutes. My proposal would be to open some of the bases that were closed the last round or install fighter wing in every comecial airport.

Ron Wenrich · September 01, 2005, 06:32:32 PM

I remember when they closed the AF base in Middletown, PA back in the '60s. All those jobs lost, devistation to the local economy, etc.

They opened up an airport where the base used to be, and other businesses opened up on the base. TMI was built and the town still survives and thrives.

When one door closes...

SwampDonkey · September 02, 2005, 04:57:55 AM

There was an airbase in Presque'Ilse Maine closed before my time and turned into an industrial park and airport and about the same time one opened in Limestone Maine by the British abd taken over by the US about 20 miles away which later closed in 1992. Now they have a reburbishment plant there that employs 500 plus people. It's not all bad news.

gary · September 02, 2005, 05:02:01 AM

Sd Are you close to limestone maine? I was at Loring AFB for three years.My wife is from Hamlin Me.

SwampDonkey · September 02, 2005, 05:12:16 AM

gary, I live an hour from Limestone. I go to Presque'Isle once in awhile, rarely to Caribou.

Haytrader · September 02, 2005, 07:07:59 AM

This is a major reason I like self employment.
Everything happens for a reason. It is sometimes hard to figure out the reason.
Like Ron said. When one door closes, another will open. (said half and insinuated the other half ;))

I lost a $50,000 a year job last Jan. when my elderly employee passed.
That was quite a shock. What did I do? Went out and bought a new truck.

:D :D

I just decided I was gonna be OK. I haven't looked back.
Life is good
It can be for you too. Put yer thinkin hat on and do somthing you have always wanted to do.

ARKANSAWYER · September 02, 2005, 07:43:44 AM

Four years waiting for the other boot to drop is a long time. But on the other hand it give a fellow time to study the lay of the land. There should be some DOD transfers come from all of this.

Having been in the Army there are several things they should do. FIRST is close most overseas stations and bring the troops home. There would be billions saved there and most of our troops do not really need to be stationed outside of the US. With planes and ships we can reach most places in the world in a timely manner because you can not really afford to store equipment and troops for years that are never needed. Most post I was at overseas they did not like you other then the coin you dropped in town. The US Army is the No. 1 provider to South Korea and keeps them in the black. We pull out they dry up. While I was over in Korea I do not remember any British, Cananada, French or other nation with a base overthere. We can not and should not try to police the world. Protect our borders first and our people first. Like Gen. 3:15 says when they strike our heel we should bruise their head. And do it right the first time so they will think about it the second time should the need arise.

What you are worth to America is what makes us great! Look up, Look out and take the bull by the horns. Because we do not lay down and cry over every little thing is what has made this country strong. Just look south of me. Them folks are a hurting from the strom but most are not just waiting for a hand out. Some are getting back to work with what they have and will carve out their life from rubble that is left. There will be many that will go from line to line wanting something for nothing and will just sit around till it is all done for them and bred more of the same while doing it.
You have two hands my Lad, the most that all of the greatest have had, so therefore you can do all that there is to be had.

karl · September 02, 2005, 08:28:00 AM

Wasn't gonna reply to this one,BUT :

I couldn't agree with ole' 'Trader more.
One thing I learned from ALL my former Bosses was that concerns about my welfare beyond being able to show up and givie 110% were very low on their list of importance. After I learned the same lesson with a partner, I decided that compromising my future and health should be on my terms and not those of a "Boss".

THERE IS NO GUARANTEE OF FINANCIAL SECURITY IN OUR CONSTITUTION, there is however the opportunity to learn to make your own way.

It has been 21 years since I signed the papers disolving "our" corporation and 24 years since I have had a "boss".

I had been Moonlighting to make ends meet anyway so had developed a client base and good reputation so the transition was easier than suddenly finding myself unemployed.

I have never regreted taking charge of our financial future - it is a "simpler life"(no second home, luxury vehicles,big boats or mortgages) but I haven't worried about where my next job would be for a long time.

It has been the one thing in my life that I had some "control over".

A similar saying that I have used for years - "every ending is followed by a new beginning" It has been especially important to remember in the months since Marie's passing.

jjmk98k · September 07, 2005, 09:21:53 PM

thanks for all the replies.... I am hopeful for a turn around... but at the same time, thankful I have time to plan otherwise!!

twoodward.... NJ isnt bad, but my mind is made up if WG shuts down and the 111th FW dissolves, I am moving up to northern PA and just try my luck there and settle down..

asy · September 08, 2005, 04:55:22 AM

Quote from: Tom on August 30, 2005, 10:12:52 PM
This calls to mind the saying. "A minor operation is one that happens to someone else. A major operation is one that happens to you".

I don't like the demise of our armed forces because I don't trust China. North Korea, Iran and those other "threats" are nothing but an itch if we were to decide to just get rid of them. China is a different story. We best have the means to defend ourselves or they might decide that it would be easier to build their stuff here than there and ship it. People that are concerned over the length of time we are spending in Iraq will be amazed at the length of time China will spend in the USA.

Jim, I was really sorry to hear about your Job...

But, Tom, I think the biggest threat to the USA is not from 'invasion' in the way we know it. It's not from the Armed Forces of another country marching into the USA and taking over.

IMHO the biggest threat to the USA will be economic. All reports say that the USA owe billions and billions in foreign debt. It's nearly 8 Trillion (with a T) dollars in foreign debt, to all accounts much of this debt is owned by the Asian economies. (there's roughly 40 Trillion owed, of which 8 tril is to foreign interests and it's going up about 600billion a year)

ABout 38% of US foreign debt is owed to Japan, but China is now the biggest buyer of American Foreign Debt.

It would be darned difficult for Uncle Sam to go into war with a country to whom it owes TRILLIONS of dollars... WHat would they do if the debt was called in?

OR worse, Lets assume much of the debt is owed to china and north Korea... Say, for example, North Korea wants to invade South Korea, and points their nukes directly at their south. It would generally be reasonable to assume the USA will play 'white night' and go in there and protect South Korea... However, what if China backed NK? What if China turned around and said.. OI! USA! If you go stick your noses into NK's takeover, we'll call in our debts.

What does the US do now? WHere would they get the TRILLIONS they owe China?

And what if the Chinese government, in a few years when it's bought up all USA's debt, and USA owes China 15 trillion (at the current rate, that's about 2010) How's about the president at the time getting a phone call from China's president at the time saying "um, we're a bit overfull here, we'll send over half a Billion people, in exchange for nullifying your debt to us"... Would you call that invasion? immigration? simple economics??

I really think this is the biggest threat to world peace.

Don't misunderstand me, the US forces are just as necessary today as ever, however, their 'usefullness' in an international sense must be weighed against the government's ability to manage their fiscal priorities.

I have no bias on the Iraq matter, one way or the other, I can see both the for and the against of going there. I hope all the service men and women from all nations come home safely. However, I really worry about the financial cost of the whole matter. Both in the immediate sense, and in future debt reconciliation for the American government and peoples.

Hope this made sense, and I hope I didn't offend anyone, it was not my intention. I am certainly not anti-war or anti-armed forces etc. Simply concerned about the economic impact of foreign debt making the armed forces into a paper tiger.

asy :D

jjmk98k · September 11, 2005, 11:02:32 AM

I dont trust Canada.... they might try a move from the north!!! :D :D

Buzz-sawyer · September 12, 2005, 11:56:12 AM

Quote from: Don_Papenburg on August 31, 2005, 11:30:03 PM
Why haven't we closed any bases over seas?
After 9 11 I would think that the fools would see the need to be able to scramble a couple of fighter jets from anywhere in this country to any other place in a matter of minutes. My proposal would be to open some of the bases that were closed the last round or install fighter wing in every comecial airport.

They are also closing the air wing at lambert field in st Louis................
we were capable of meeting ANY airborn threat within 5 minutes ...which is minimum requirement in my mind........now response times are probably10-15 minutes from scott AFB....
I like National defense.. :'( >:(

Buzz-sawyer · September 12, 2005, 12:01:04 PM

asy
when it comes down to debts owed and military struggles.....Well, bullets and bombs have a way off wipping out debts.....i cant see our nation succumbing to a foregn power based on debt..we will maintain our soveriengty, and do ,"The right thing world wide regardless" of what our creditors say, after all, if we were not here to consume goods, they would have no income ;)