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planting pines

Started by ely, March 23, 2006, 11:05:57 AM

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ely

who has planted pine trees. yesterday i went by a company here that was giving away pine seedlings. picked up a bag of them, guy told me there was from 1000 to 1500 in each bag. planted almost 400 last eve.  i am thinking about going back and getting another bag so i can plant all weekend. i like it almost as much as sawing trees down and milling them into lumber.

Tom

It's money on the hoof!

The paper companies would give away small quantities here sometimes.  It was good advertisement for them.

I've dibbled in a bunch and machine planted a bunch.  I favor machine planting when it gets to be work.  I like the dibbling when I'm playing.  I even thought of making a tractor pulled dibble that I could walk behind. Never did do it though.  Sometimes the roots and stuff make it  hard to drive a dibble into the ground.  Using a hoe-dad does better.

What kid of pines are you planting?

SteveB

Make sure the site is suitable for them.  Where are you and what species are they?  Are they "bare root" or container seedlings (some soil attached)?  Because of genetic diversity and regional evolution/adaptation, you should make sure you'r planting the seeedlings within the same "seed zone" the seed was collected from.  I would hope the group sellign the trees has taken this into account, but don't count on it.  As long as you'r enot planting them 200miles from where you got them you'r eprobably ok.  Remeber they are living things, so you should handle them gently and make sure they're kept moist.  If they dry out or sit out un-refrigerated too long you'll be wasting your time putting them in the ground.  Make sure the roots are completely buried.  It's better to plant they too deep than not deep enough.  I imagien you are in some place far enough south that the ground isn't frozen.  Make sure you compact the soil enough/ close up the holes you made to plant them so that there are no gaps or cracks in the soil around them or the roots will dry out.  Make sure the hole you make is big enough so that the roots can be oriented naturally in the hole, don't stuff the long roots of bear-root or jam in a container root system so that the roots are bent up or are "J'd" at the botom of the hole.  Remember also that tehy will most likely need some follow up care in the form of tending.  Otehrwise other vegetation will choke them out.  This can be done by hand, shovel, brush saw or with herbicides, depending on the scale you're working at.  You may also end up having problems with Moose, Deer, rabbits, bugs, etc eating them.


Ok,

Enough for now.  Sorry to bore you if you already know this stuff.  Most of all, have fun.  Planting trees can be a really rewarding experience.


Onthesauk

DNR out here makes quite an issue of planting trees who's seeds originated near where you are planting.  To the extent that there are businesses who will come in and harvest cones a year or two prior to logging, raise seedlings, and replant.

I use to plant a couple of hundred douglas fir and western red cedar every winter and they originated somewhere within a hundred miles or so.  They seem to be doing fine.  I suppose if you are trying to get maximum production on a large tract it probably makes sense.
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Riles

Watch your spacing too.  The trend nowadays is to plant them wider. Weyerhauser is planting 8 feet apart and 20 feet apart on the rows. Reduces the need for thinning, and when you do thin, the trees are bigger (and hence more valuable for pulp). Density has little effect on height, but everything to do with the diameter of the trees you get. (Soil quality determines height).

My farm was planted 8 X 10, and that works out to be about 550 to an acre.
Knowledge is good -- Faber College

SwampDonkey

I can usually plant up here by the 3rd week of April, that's not far away. I just wanted to comment on the spacing though. It very much depends on species. If I was to plant white spruce 10 x 10 I'de being growing cow shades. Need to grow them tighter to encourage self pruning early or that bushy stuff you might as well mow over. When we space hardwood in our thinnings we like them tighter too and we don't thin under 5 meters in height. You space them too far apart and all you get is apple trees on some of our ridges.

I'm somewhat hessitant to agree with Riles' assumption that density doesn't effect height (I know what they said in College ;) ), but the casual observer can bring it into question. I've seen stunting in balsam fir thickets, even on the better sites. You never walked through 50,000 st/ha balsam fir that only grows 4 inches a year. Sometimes, the timing of spacing those thickets is too late and they go the other way (stagnate) and end up with about 3 live whorls, turn yellow and bite the bullet when thinned or have severe but rot and be no good for anything. But, if the timing is right they'll really start taking off about 3 years later post thinning. Another example is take a young sugar maple from a  thicket that grew about 10 inches/yr for the last 5 years and plant it on your lawn in full sun and see how she responds in a couple a years. More sunlight, more growing space, more crown more wood (height and girth), in less time. ;) You can take that the other way to, too much space and you have a cow shade spruce with live limbs to the ground and big diameter and shorter tree than that one spaced with other trees close by, both same age. ;) Also, I'm sure you've seen a stand that has gone beyond the point of pre-commercial thinning (too tall) and there are trees in that thicket that express dominance. Might be genetics or could be microsite, but it occurs on any site from the poorest to the richest of ground. And generally trees grown naturally in a  confined space have a pretty good chance to be close relatives. We can't sample the soil on every square inch. ;) A person also has to be careful to make the distinction between suppressed over topped trees and an even-aged released stand, as far as hieght growth is concerned.

You can hit that discussion from a number of different angles and probably prove every scenario. ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

ely

not really certain of the species, but i am almost sure they are a hybrid tree of some sort. loblolly maybe. the sack says the came from mississippi and we are planting them here in se okla. the company plants about 7 million a year he said. they give the rest away to folks just to help them out he said, i am thinking thanks right about now. i am sore in places i never knew existed. i have planted two sacks since i posted this. i have onemore to go. they are bare root seedlings, i say seedlings some of them are 12 inches tall. the reason i say they are hybrid is i can plant them beside natural volunteer pines and they will pass a 4 foot pine tree up in less than 3 years time. i will get a picture of the stand i planted about 12 years ago, i planted them way to close but they were uneffected by the ice storms because i had them so close. i need to thin them for posts about now. i built my own planter way back then and it works well its just a bit heavy.

Riles

Not hybrids, but genetically "improved" pure species. A hybrid by definition is a cross between species and will be sterile. Instead, they look at stands of loblolly (or any tree) and find the best ones (fastest growing, disease resistant, drought tolerant, etc.). Thoses trees are carefully bred and the seedlings from there are the ones grown in nurseries. There is a lot more genetic selection going on with pines than anything else.
Knowledge is good -- Faber College

SwampDonkey

We used to plant bare root red pine on fields and they came in bundles of 500. They were all over 12 inches, up to 18. They always surpassed the natural regen creeping in the fields. In fact if you have a field seeded in with patches of white spruce up to 3 meters tall, the pine would catch up and often surpass the spruce.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

pedajas

The density of trees has impact on their height. Too dense and too sparse stands are not reaching the max height typical for the soil and for the species. In sparse stands trees are wider, trunks somewhat  thicker, but relatively much more wood is in their brances and roots compared to the trees in denser stands. In too dense stands trees are thin and most from the wood mass is in composition of their trunks. Roots are not developed normally and are small and weak, same is valid for their canopy. This causes weak resistance to the tree diseases-wreckers and bad weather  conditions. The amount of total wood production per area is reduced, as well etc.

pedajas

Quote from: SwampDonkey on March 28, 2006, 10:46:03 AM
We used to planted bare root red pine on fields and they came in bundles of 500. They were all over 12 inches, up to 18. They always surpassed the natural regen creeping in the fields. In fact if you have a field seeded in with patches of white spruce up to 3 meters tall, the pine would catch up and often surpass the spruce.
Pines as the lighting demanding species are very fast growing in the youth, but the growing into height is decreasing rapidly, more rapidly and early than for spruces-firs.  Later  pines will lost their "sharp" top and the height will stabilize.

pedajas

Quote from: SteveB on March 23, 2006, 01:01:40 PM
Make sure the site is suitable for them.  Where are you and what species are they?  Are they "bare root" or container seedlings (some soil attached)?  Because of genetic diversity and regional evolution/adaptation, you should make sure you'r planting the seeedlings within the same "seed zone" the seed was collected from.  I would hope the group sellign the trees has taken this into account, but don't count on it.  As long as you'r enot planting them 200miles from where you got them you'r eprobably ok.  Remeber they are living things, so you should handle them gently and make sure they're kept moist.  If they dry out or sit out un-refrigerated too long you'll be wasting your time putting them in the ground.  Make sure the roots are completely buried.  It's better to plant they too deep than not deep enough.  I imagien you are in some place far enough south that the ground isn't frozen.  Make sure you compact the soil enough/ close up the holes you made to plant them so that there are no gaps or cracks in the soil around them or the roots will dry out.  Make sure the hole you make is big enough so that the roots can be oriented naturally in the hole, don't stuff the long roots of bear-root or jam in a container root system so that the roots are bent up or are "J'd" at the botom of the hole.  Remember also that tehy will most likely need some follow up care in the form of tending.  Otehrwise other vegetation will choke them out.  This can be done by hand, shovel, brush saw or with herbicides, depending on the scale you're working at.  You may also end up having problems with Moose, Deer, rabbits, bugs, etc eating them.


Ok,

Enough for now.  Sorry to bore you if you already know this stuff.  Most of all, have fun.  Planting trees can be a really rewarding experience.


Here is the rule for pines that seeds-seedling from the one, the "best" region, can be used on all  other regions here. Seeds from other regions, where the native trees are not with so good  properties, can be used only locally .

SwampDonkey

Red pine is one species that has little variation across it's range, not much effort in trying to improve it. I was told this by the former President of the New Brunswick Tree Improvement Counsel, whom I used to work for at Forestry Canada as a summer student.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

snowman

20 years ago when i was young and hungry i would plant trees during spring breakup when logging shut down.Last winter i was on a job that went by an area that i had helped plant and was very impressed by the size of the trees, 20 feet at least, but i kept thinking, boy it sure needs thinned, the jackpine volunteers had come in heavy crowding out thy p pine and larch we had planted. Well one fine day i drove by and it was thinned, looked great. One small problem though, someone thought theyd cut the smaller trees and leave the bigger ones which of course were the jack pine weed trees,all the beautiful p pine and larch were laying on the ground. :'(

SteveB

Snowman,

What are P pine?  Pitch pine?  Didn't think jack pine would grow very far south into the US, as I think of it as a boreal/acadian species with only limited distribution in the Great Lakes Region? 

As a canadian I dont' know much about the southern us pines.  See the odd research paper on Loblolly pine, and seems like people talk about southern yellow pine mostly in a commercial forestry context.  Are these two different names for the same species?  Where do "slash pine", "Longleaf pine" and "pitch pine" fit in?  I get the impression they are all long needled pines.  Are the southern species as stong as jack pine? (I didn't think they were) I know that at least some are considered "hard pines".  Are any soft and 'workable' like white pine, or more like red pine?  I have seen references to using them for pulp and OSB.  (Any difference between osb from poplar and stuff made using these pines?) Are any of these species used for utility poles?  What about MDF and particle board?


beenthere

Snowman
I'm assuming the p pine is Ponderosa pine, but am wondering what species you are calling jack pine. In some areas, jack pine is young ponderosa. Is your jack pine a short needle pine?  anything like lodgepole pine? 
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

ely

the pines i am planting have three needles to a bunch, or in one pod. if that makes sense.

Furby

P Pine = Planted Pine?

Riles

ely, you are undoubtedly planting loblolly pines.

The Southern yellow pines are generally considered to be longleaf (Pinus palustris)and loblolly (P. taeda) (3 needles to a fasicle) and slash (P. elliottii), shortleaf (P. echinata), and spruce (P. glabra)(2 needles to a fasicle). Spruce pine is the odd one out because it makes lousy lumber, grows with poor form, lots of branching that fail to drop when they die, and on and on. You can get pulp out of a spruce pine, but it's a pain to work with.

Longleaf makes great utility poles; it's the strongest of the bunch. Some people consider loblolly to be the weakest of the group, usually because it's grown so fast. It still makes acceptable structural lumber.

The southern pines are considered "hard" pines and are structurally the strongest of the pines, I believe. Heart pine flooring is common. Only longleaf has long needles. I can't speak to poplar vs pine in OSB, but the Weyerhauser plant here in Simsboro LA has a HUGE pile of pine logs (even more than Kirk Allen!) for making OSB.
Knowledge is good -- Faber College

Furby

Not sure Kirk has any pine logs.
What's the word Kirk?
Ya got a BIG pile of pine ya didn't tell us about ??? ??? ???

snowman

Sorry for the confusion, im realizing after entering this forum that many terms are regional, we all live in our own small worlds i guess. P pine is short for ponderosa pine where i am and jack pine is slang for lodge pole pine. Where i am its the junk tree that grew in after 1910 fires, considered a weed tree.From this point on im not going to assume everyones from north idaho.Yes the world really is round! :D

SwampDonkey

I was wondering about that snowman, because here they buy jack pine for sawlogs and pulpwood. Grows naturally on sandy soils here, sometimes mixed with black spruce, white birch, and balsam. I've seen old fire ground planted with black spruce at 1000 stems/acre and the jack pine regen from seed was 10,000 st/acre comming up amongst it. Poor planning there. :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Tom

It pays to be specific.  Down here a reference to P-Pine would have someone thinking Pocosin or Pond Pine a, worthless for lumber and undesirable for pulp, tree with a nickname of "Black" pine (also a nickname for Loblolly).  It's fairly easy to recognize by sight because it grows needles from its trunk and mature limbs, and smells like lemons when sawed.  It will sell as pulp but is usually hogged for fuel.  A sawyer in a big mill could get fired for knowingly sawing it into lumber.

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