How to buy sawlogs for my sawmill?

[Kelvin]

Howdy all,
Just starting to think about buying logs now that the freebies have dried up.  I've called a bunch of loggers with no replies.  Talked with some sawmills about buying their oversized oak logs (which i want for QS)  and got replies of about $1.00- $1.50 a bd ft.  Which going along with our post about how sawillers don't make much money, now i want to squeeze the poor logger for the price i hear that oak goes for.

Just wondering what the experience is out there?  I don't have the money to buy tens of thousands of bd ft, but would go pick up what i want, but no one will even call me back.  I would like to set up a repeat business, but can't get in the door of the suppliers.  Do you expect to overpay for the first while until you get a deal going?  I've heard that No. 1 oak sawlogs should expect to be in the $.50-.60 range in my area, but if i want small quantities should i expect to pay more?  Does anyone out there buy logs in the 2-4,000 bd ft range from a logger?

Do to the focus in my business of quarter sawn oak we would need them to be from 24" in dia up, and can use the ones over 36" by ripping apart, but this takes us time as well so best being from 28-34"  Can you be so specific?  I would like the butt logs as well as the amount of labor in QS means we need to start with the best grade, just under veneer, but i'm not sure we can get these or if maybe we should have to pay $1- 1.50 for this?  Any experiece out there?

Also does anyone have any connections to log supply in central michigan where a small guy could buy from reasonably?  any ideas on where to go for logs?  Should i hang around small sawmills and pay them premium to sort out good logs or try find the elusive logger?  Doesn't seem to be much in the way of loggers in my 60 miles radius, as i'm not sure much logging goes on here in corn country, and what little i'm aware of, comes from one big operation that has already told me they aren't interested in selling any logs.
Any ideas?

[beenthere]

I think first off, I'd go talk face to face with those you want to try to do business with (maybe that is what you are asking now in your phone messages), and not over the phone.
Initially, be prepared to buy some of the logs you want at the price they want. That will get your foot in the door the quickest, and then negotiate price the next time, or you set your price ("I'll pay you xx$$'s for these particular logs") the next buying trip. You probably want access to a log yard or two where you can 'shop' for your logs. Keep in mind, there will be a range of log quality, that the owner of the logs has an interest in the higher quality logs, and little interest in selling them out.
So maybe forming a bond (foot in the door) by initially buying the low quality logs will work best. Need to let these log owners know that you are an asset to their business, not a liability.

[Brad_S.]

I always try and look at it from the loggers perspective. Here comes a guy wanting to buy good logs in small quantities at fire sale prices. It's like someone coming to me wanting to buy 25 boardfeet of lumber, go through the stacks and take the best stuff, then try to chisel me on the price. I wouldn't be interested in dealing with a person like this and I don't expect the logger to either.

The loggers I deal with have uses for milled lumber. I saw for them at my going rate, they sell me logs in smaller quantities for what they could get for them at the larger mill. My willingness to respond to them in a timely and professional manner is returned the same way and it's a win/win. It takes time to find loggers like this but it works well once a relationship is established.

Regarding buying logs for QS. As you know, butt logs make the best QS as there are few defects, but there is only one log per tree. I expect to pay a premium buck for the butt, $1+ a bdft around here for WO. Still, even with the work of QS, the $4+ per bdft I'll sell it for after drying will be profitable. Almost all of the lumber will be FAS and drying defects such as cupping are minimal. Boards that bend can be cut and sold as shorter material. QS doesn't linger long on the shelves, either.

Kelvin, I really enjoy the questions you ask and the answers you get in return. IMO, you're one of the contributors here whose past posts should be required reading for anyone thinking of getting into the sawmill business. :D

[Fla._Deadheader]

To add a little, I remember when Kelvin first showed up here. He had just suffered a major kiln fire and lost his wood. Kelvin has experience, I just feel he is having second thoughts about staying with the sawing.

  I really believe he stated where he should be spending more effort,  DRYING wood, especially for others. I think he stated that there are NO kilns within a 100 mile radius.  8)

[Bibbyman]

When you figure it out.... let me know. 

I talked to the logger yesterday.  Said they may be able to get in the woods tomorrow but there is a prediction of rain by Sunday.  The logs he'll be after (veneer and white oak stave logs) won't come to our lot.

They have a few "junk" logs on their lot they can bring us he said maybe today.  It's noon.  We've got the lat 12' oak logs on the deck - need about 20 more to finish out this order.  We're desperately short on everything else.

[two saw]

Kelvin, I have numerous times tried to strike a deal with local loggers and have yet to be successful. The only place I can get what I am looking for is a local log concentration yard. It's almost like going shopping. I can go look at the logs and pretty much pick the ones I want. I don't buy too many grade logs. I buy tie logs and usually get a 7X9 tie and 2 or 3 boards off it. I can sell everything almost as soon as I saw it and get a return on my investment quickly. So far. It could all change today but it works for me for now. What you are sawing (QS) I assumne is what you want to concentrate on. I had it my head what I was going to saw and nothing else when I started in to this and I have changed my tune several times up to now. I would try to find you a log yard and befriend the fellow running the place as I did and it has worked out for me. He always has logs and dosen't care if I show up next week at all. He can sell them to someone else. But he is always happy to see me when I show up. We are friendly enough now that once in a while he will say, Hey I got a couple logs in this pile that I won't be able to sell do you me to put them on you truck, maybe you can do something with them. I say Sure. If I can get 2 or 3 fence boards from the it's worth dragging them home. I also get a little fire wood from them I can sell.
I just have had no luck with loggers. They want to sell me a truck of tree run and I can't buy that way and survive. They want me to buy everything that hits the landing and is loaded on the truck. Can't do it. From what I have read from your posts you have a way to go after them. It might be better for you if you are not too far from a yard. On the other hand, The guy where I buy log has a brother in law that parks his log truck there at the yard and he tells me if I ever need a large load he could have him bring them to me. For a fee of course, but it is another option.
I enjoy your post and wanted to tell you good job on the house.
I want to build a timber frame barn one day soon.
Two Saw.

[Duncan]

I have bought loads of logs from local loggers occasionally.  I normally find out what kind of beer they drink and show up to their job site and shoot the breeze for a while.  I pay the price they are getting at the mills and am closer.  The most important part is meeting them, drinking a beer or two about quitting time and they seem to really be more likely to do business with you.  Paying quickly or at least on time is a huge plus sometimes I will write the check before they leave.
That lead into one of the loggers dropping off logs and using me as a personal log yard.  I don't pay for the logs until I use them and it has worked out pretty well so far.  I sometimes have to load a truck up with pulp or some sawlogs but it is a small price to pay for the convenience of having a larger inventory that I could afford to have in my business.

Kelly

[MSU_Keith]

Kelvin,
Have you tried using the state government resources?  Try the forest industry query system located here:
Mich Forest Industry

It lists 691 sawlog suppliers and only 514 sawmills  statewide (including yours). 8)

Also check on the loggers winning the DNR contracts located here:
Bid Summary Reports

Some of these bid winners may focus on pulp or softwood and might be looking for hardwood buyers.

[Kelvin]

I like the idea of a log concentration yard, but how do find them?  I know of one that only gets stuff in the winter and that is where i pay $1.00-1.50 for a but log (with next log attached of course)  maybe this is as good as you can expect, i just was maybe hoping to cut out the middle man, but like you guys have mentioned, loggers are busy and if you want the whole forest maybe they will talk with you.  I don't mind paying what the going rate is, i just don't know what that is and i haven't found to many people that can pass up a sucker like me without adding a few 0's to the price just to see what they can get away with.

Thanks all for the comments on the new house and the posts.  I don't know anybody that does anything like i do, and i don't know what i would have done if i didn't have all you guys to bounce things off from and get the inside scoop from those who have been there.  Its hard to come from and non wood background and get in on the level.  Just like if you didn't grow up farming imagine what it would be like to learn it all from scratch!

So for those of you who haven't posted yet, who buy logs, would you think that $1.50 for No. 1 sawlogs (butts) in the 28-34" range would be acceptable?  How much would they get for veneer?  lot more or close?

Thanks and keep the ideas coming.

Oh, and for the record i'm in the middle of building my new kiln.  I bought a used nyle 200 off the internet and we just mounted the fans today.  Gotta see if the thing works.  Momment of truth.  I also think that drying is almost mandatory for us guys who own their own saws!  Not gonna give in yet!

See ya,
KP

[mike_van]

I gotta agree with beenthere, a visits worth a dozen messages. Once you do find someone Kelvin, try to stick with  them [unless you feel you got shafted] I use one guy, call him for everything,  he's a straight shooter, and i've never felt the need to call around to get a better price - Last Thu. i picked up a job, a guy needs 2x18's, white pine, biggest log i had was 20", i called  Chip, [hey a logger named Chip, you can't go wrong]  He said he had 3 or 4, 40 inchers.  He's 30 miles away, so i asked him to fill out the load with firewood logs,  figuring it would make the trip wrthwhile - He was here Monday at noon, i was sawing by 1:00 PM.  

[SwampDonkey]

Kelvin, you also have to consider that the guy doesn't know you and may have possibly been burned and never got his pay when he delivered wood to a guy's yard. Just takes one rotten apple to spoil the whole barrel. Helps to have a wad of cash in your vest that you can pay for the wood on the spot at the logger's yard. Tell the guy your ready to pay cash at the yard. Have your trailer sit'n near the loader and log pile and he can sort and load what you want onto it as he loads his big semi. Payment for the wood is the only issue I can see being a pain for the logger. Well the delivery is a concern to, but not an issue if your in his yard to pick it up. He may have insurance concerns possibly. It's not as if your going to put the mill out of business that he sells to, so pay him what 'his' mill pays him. Don't get sucked in by offering him more for the wood unless the situation warrants it. You want to make the transaction as smooth as possible for each of you.

[farmerdoug]

Kelvin,

Can you hual the logs or are you looking for them to be delivered?  I know you are looking for larger logs to quartersaw but what species are you looking for?

Farmerdoug

[WDH]

I don't want to be a spoil-sport, but wood theft is a big problem in this Industry.  Just be sure the logger you are paying really owns the wood and that he is not skimming the true timber owner on the side for your "cash".  I know the vast majority of people in our Industry are honest, but if you randomly gather a 100 people together, at least a few of them will be thieves, and unfortunately, there are a few of them in our business.  If something doesn't lok on the up-and-up, shy away from it.

[woodmills1]

I would like to say dont pay a dollar for any thing, cause they can't get any where near that, your gettin hosed.  Or I should say I got some over her you can have for 50 cent :D.   


Ran into a construction guy tonight who said he buried some walnut last week just to get it out of his way.  I asked him Ifin he remembered where he buried it.

don't agree to cut orders unless you have the logs

Go find every log truck in your county.

Go find every tree cutter close by.

Don't phone them go face to face............around here they are cash talk to me kinda guys.



BTW    get a log trailer...................... :

[Kelvin]

farmerdoug,
I'm looking for 28-32"+ white and red oak mostly, but if i could get decent prices on cherry, walnut and maple i'd be interested in just about anything, but the oaks are what i need to be finding, and nice butt logs at that.  What do you pay for No. 1 oak butt sawlogs?  Yes i have a 36k GVW crane truck and 16k beaver tail trailer to haul with.
Anyone with info in the mid michigan area let me know.  Thanks
KP

[farmerdoug]

Kelvin,

I pay all over the place. 

I have a land clearer that sells me logs for $45 a full in ten cord loads delivered.   :oThere is some firewood but also logs that I have to cut with a chainsaw to mill too.  At that price I do not even feel like cutting my own firewood.

#1 logs go from 400 - 600 dollars around here but you have to know a logger and take the load.  I will see if there is any with logyards that will be interested in selling to you.  That will have to be after the 1st of the year sometime though.

I mill pallet and tie grade mostly so I do not get into the #1 logs much accept for the beautiful logs I get as firewood.  But I am also looking at buying standing timber.  If I do I will definitly be interested in selling some to you as that would be a waste on pallets and ties, foresure.  ;D I maybe logging a tract or next year so I will let you know if they come through.

If I run into anuthing will let you know at that time.  I know that does not help you now though either.

Farmerdoug

[SawDust_Studios]

 I too am just getting into it.  It has been my limited experience that you will always be better off buying at least  a full load for me 1-2 triaxles to get a better price.  1 load is typically about 3500-4000 bdft.

I found one guy that wants to get rid of some, not really junk, but more tie grade logs.  I'd like some 2-3sc white oak.  He has this, but to get his price down and to make the deal, I told him I maybe able to take a load of tie grade and the white oak.  I haven't made the deal and the specifics aren't set, but I'll be at about 4mbf of tie and 3-4mbf of white oak.  I'll be in the 2300-2600 range for the 2 loads.  Probably more of the 2sc WO

I've talked to quite a few around here lately.  I haven't had any in that 1.00/bdft or higher range.  Most around here will take veneer to yards specifically for that and the prime and select is a bit hard to get.  Best I can usually do is 3sc and some are very nice.  I think .60-70 is the most I've seen. But they are questionable on that high of grade. Nice for me, but not at that price.  Depends on your product and market I guess.

I've also found that , if you give the logger a bit of a promise of repeat business you may get your foot in the door(Just like selling lumber!). Nobody wants to start business with somebody if next month, they may go somewhere else.   

If you read my post on concentration yards awhile back, you know my problem with a local yard and getting cheated.  In short, he doesn't have my business, but another one does and I'm a repeat seller there now.  I'm know to the owner, and he's given me suggestions on what he really needs, which means better prices for me.   I've been extremely happy. 

So, while talking to loggers, I'm sure to tell them. I'd like at least 1-2 triaxles each month for now. Perhaps more in the spring and summer.  You work out a relationship, things work out for both parties.  Unfortunately, it is getting your foot in the door. 

You might have to pay a bit more for your first load, but you still have to make money, so don't pay yourself out of the market.  Otherwise, you will get taken advantage of.  Figure your time in getting the logs. I've quickly found out that it ain't worth my time and I'll have everything quoted delivered.  I will likely go look at them, but that is about it.

[oakiemac]

Kelvin,

Go to all the local tree services and talk with them. They get junk logs mainly but there are jems in their yards as well. I had one call be today with a 30" red oak that he just took down. He said I can have the logs if I come pick them up.

Find owners of small wood lots 5-20 acres. These woodlots have lots of nice trees but are often overlooked by the big loggers who want truck loads of logs. I work with two or three of these type people and just buy standing trees from them when I need them. They like it because they generate some income and they don't have big equipment tearing up their wood. I also clean up the tops and leave as little mark in the woods as possible. I also buy a lot of blown down trees. Logger won't touch 3-4 trees that have  blown down but I will come in and take them with minimal impact.

Contact excavating and land clearing companies. I get a lot of logs from them. They are often delighted to sell them because they usually cut them for fire wood or push the logs into a pile and burn the lot.

Find a small one man band type logger. I work with one guy that is independent and he only has one pickup truck and a dump trailer. But he can usually get me anything that I need. Red Oak 50-60 cents at most, cherry 80-$1.00, hard maple can be more expensive, white oak 40 cents.

I use a lot of black oak because the big mills consider them only as pallet logs. I can usually get a lot of good wood from them and they are cheap and usualy very big which is great for qs'ing.

[Kansas]

Im not sure if corn country in michigan is similar to northeast kansas, but if it is, this might help. One of the best sources of logs around here is farmers and landowners clearing land for expanding irrigation systems, expanding fields, watershed dams, etc. Most of the time, these trees are dozed out or taken down with a trackhoe first, due to it being easier to take out the stump with the tree still attached. These type of salvage operations present a lot of opportunities for smaller mills. Most loggers stay away from these types of operations. Usually when they take place, there may not be enough board feet involved to interest them, or the right species, and time usually is of the essence when the dozer is running. Around here, most of these operations take place from late fall to early spring. In the last few weeks, we have had 12000 feet of oak off of one job, with about 4000 feet being good enough for grade and quartersawing, another job of about 25000 feet of mostly cottonwood, and another job of about 30,000 feet of cottonwood and sycamore. In the first case, it was a farmer expanding a field, in the second, a new landowner clearing a creek to put in a small lake, and the third was a farmer clearing to put in several center pivot irrigation systems. Each situation is unique. In the first case, the farmer logged out his oak, then called around and couldnt interest any loggers in that amount of wood, in the second, I arranged with the landowner to buy the cottonwood delivered to the mill, and in the third, we are doing the logging ourselves, following the trackhoe as the trees get taken down.
You might try running a few ads in local papers in the farmers market section, or regional farm papers, that you are looking for logs, and that clearing operations are welcome. Post notices at livestock auction barns, feed stores, etc.  Usually the farmer will have called the local logger or bigger sawmill, and been turned down, and is easier to work with. Heres a few things that usually are common in these operations. There will usually be at least some damage to the logs, ranging from very slight to severe. Buy the logs after they are cut into log form, and dont be afraid to short scale damaged logs. The farmer will expect you to take all the logs, and all species. You may have to find a home for logs you dont want. As such, pay accordingly. At times, the farmer or landowner may want some lumber out of the logs. Make sure you get paid for all aspects that you do, from cutting out the logs, transporting, etc. A lot of times, the lower quality logs can give the lumber he needs. Also, dont be afraid to say no.....a fair amount of the jobs just arent worth it.

[thecfarm]

Kinda hard to find a logger to deal with the little guy.I just had trees cut.He takes them to the wood yard and they are all scaled for him.One check is divided beween him and me.All done.If you came in he would have to look at the logs you want,maybe sort through 3-4 for one log,times how many logs you want,decide on the grade,than a price.Than he would also have to keep track of that money.More paperwork for him.Maybe while you are loading you are in his way.Time is money.The boss wasn't here most of the time.He was at another lot cutting for the paper company.He would have to have the hired help do it.Do they know the grade as well as he does?Most of the time I cut my own wood.You maybe better off looking for someone like that.There are a few guys that cut on their own land in this area.

[SwampDonkey]

Some loggers buy the wood lump sum or $$/acre, but we are talking clearcut areas most of the time. No extra paperwork required. Most landowners in our area won't hire a third party to watch over any kind of selection or commercial thinning. The value and size of the average run of wood from a  woodlot here is a lot lower/smaller than in the south.

This doesn't belong in this thread, but time for a little spiel:

I've seen a lot of semi retired guys with big bank accounts start up a woods business  : in my area in the last few years. Baby boomer types. I was contacted last summer by four of them wanting cruises done on hundreds of acres. But, as soon as I give some of them a rate they disappear. They're too cheap to pay for a cruise, that will be paid for with the first load of wood. Go figure that one out. They buy up land, saying they are going to manage it, and probably pay good money for it to. Then turn around and hire a logger to start cutting or they buy their own equipment and hire people to run it all and when it's all said and done, what's left should be burned or chipped and the site should be replanted. Some are if not stocked with regen. I know one fella who is a millionaire many times over, but not from logging. But he's now in the logging business after selling and retiring from a very profitable business. Oh well, these guys will keep me in the thinning business.  :D ;D :

[floorboy]

Kelvin,
  if you are paying that kind of money how many do you want? I cut alot of logs for okiemac. I do end up with extras. pm me and I could hook you up.