Scots pine vs Red pine...how do I tell?

[OneWithWood]

Speaking of Red Pine, I have a customer who is restoring an old building and looking for some clear red pine.  Where might one find this stuff?
I have a post in the wanted section but so far no replies.  :-\

[Nora]

In Montana, we used to have quite a few Christmas tree plantations with "Scotch" Pine. I think that variety has gone out of favor, but is it the same as Scots Pine? Also, is it used commercially, other than Christmas trees? I have read that they use it for lumber and veneer in Europe.

[SwampDonkey]

Same species Nora, it's just been Americanized to 'Scotch'.  ;D

[WDH]

Old growth scots pine in Scandanavia makes fine lumber.  It does not does as well in North America.  However, in its proper element it is a high quality tree.

[tonich]

Old growth scots pine in Scandanavia makes fine lumber. 

Not only.
The species is commonly spread and is one of the most important forest-forming species in Europe, incl. Bulgaria. It has a huge variety in forms and provenances, which are among the most studied. In Bulgaria it takes the first place of participation in forest composition, among the coniferous. Of course, very good lumber, especially if heart is wide...

...I’d rather stop right here…. before THE MAN pops up and asks for pictures!   :D :D :D

[Nora]

  Scotch is a drink Scot(tish) is a nationality - I guess the "nationality" part is dependent on your UK political views. It's interesting that the terminology applies to trees too!

However, regarding "It does not does as well in North America." Is that more because of market conditions or growing conditions? If you had acreage with 40 - 50 year old Scot Pine, what would you do with it?

[WDH]

I postulate that it is growing conditions, soils, and climate.  If a species is propogated outside its niche, it does not always do as well as on its native sites.

[SwampDonkey]

I agree WDH. But, some of the early provinences that were brought here were of poor form to begin with. It was later confirmed that they were even poor in their native habitat.

With that being said, we have a insect problem with it in some Christmas tree plantations and i don't know if it's weevil or sawfly. I'm pretty sure it's sawfly.

[Larry]

However, regarding "It does not does as well in North America." Is dat more because of market conditions or growing conditions? If yoozguys had acreage with 40 - 50 year old Scot Pine, what would yoozguys do with it?

You will never see many, if any scot pine plantations that old in the midwest.  The trees start dying around 15 years of age.  If the dead tree is not removed adjacent trees start to die.  Twenty years of age they may all go belly up at once.  I've read different reasons...some blame fungus while others say nematode's.  White, red, and jack do well in north Missouri while little further south yellow becomes prominent.  The Missouri Dept. of Conservation was selling Scotch pine seedlings mostly for wildlife and some reforestation...they quit because of the poor results. 

[Ever Green]

Wow, I didn't know I would have started such a lengthy forum...thanks for all the help...

[Ron Scott]

Scotch Pine. Note the more "orange" colored bark, and usually poorer form, and brushier appearance of scotch when compared to the better formed red pine previously shown.

[TexasTimbers]

Scots pine is not native to North America. Jack Pine is native.

I wish you hadn't said that. It instantly created a mulitutude of questions in my little brain.

[WDH]

Questions?  As Asy says, inquiring minds want to know ???

[SwampDonkey]

Scots pine here is like what Ron pictured. Up in Quebec along the Saint Lawrence, southwest of Riviere De Loup, the road ditches edges are planted with Scots pine. Seems wet for pine because of the cattails I see growing in the ditches. They are as crooked as rams horns.

[TexasTimbers]

I just wonder how far back you have to go to count a tree as native.

[OneWithWood]

In my book that would be prior to 1492.

[SwampDonkey]

Or 1497 for us Canucks when Cabot arrived and mapped the Canadian Maritime coast and dipped fish from the Bay of Fundy with a basket.  ;D

[Ron Scott]

From the Dictionary of Forestry, Native Species:  An idigenous species that is normally found as part of a particular ecosystem. A species that was present in a defined area prior to European settlement.

[Mooseherder]

This picture isn't great.  I'll get more next week of this stand of Red Pine at camp.
I love walking and riding thru here. ;)

[barbender]

Up here, the scots pine grows well, but like other areas they have pretty poor form. There is a stand at the local college campus that has the best form I have seen in these trees. In fact, many people mistake them for red pine, they are about 80' tall and pretty straight. The orange bark doesn't start till about 50' up and the bottom half of the trees looks pretty much the same as the red pine they are mixed with in that stand.

[Mooseherder]

 About half of these Red Pine have good form. They border the whole southeast side of our property along Route 1. Weren't Red Pine just planted to keep people busy 30 years ago?
There is a guy up in Maine who made himself a machine to peel and make the log uniform to use for Log Cabins. He is just getting started and his plan is to build one for himself then maybe be able to sell some logs. He did a great job on his logs. Wish I woulda had my camera that day.

[SwampDonkey]

Must have been more than keeping busy.  :D Someone must have been paid. ;)

We've planted a lot of old marginal farmland over the years with red pine, 100's of acres. Looks nice if you can keep the moose out until it gets 4 meters or so in height. They like to rip the tops off. The trouble with red pine is traditionally it needs to be big to be worth much. We have a limited market for the pulp and no commercial mill saws it that I know of. They use it mainly for utility poles. It's most always left standing on harvest blocks. Some plantations 40 years old or more have been spaced, but the pulp was barely feasible to cut.


Are their no state silviculture programs for thinning and planting on private woodlots? Are their restrictions on clear cutting? I don't see many big cuts along the highways, but if you go beyond Mapleton, there are large cuts. They seem to be out of view from the main artery (Route 1-1A).

Up there in Fort Kent, you can look east and see Blue Bell mountain, where we spent a lot of the summer whacking the bushes.  ;D

We will be finishing up next Friday on our last block in view of the windmills on Mars Hill.

[sharp edge]

I always had trouble with Scot and Jack pines. I think other members might have trouble too, from looking at the replies. So I googled the trees and figured them out. ___ They are the samething but different___ :(
SE

[Brian Beauchamp]

I bet it is genetics as well, SteveB.  Those scots pine in Sweden were fine.

...do you mean 'poor' genetics, or genetics in the sense that they evolved for a particular site/climatic conditions? If it's the latter, I agree...you could probably take those Scot's pines back over there and plant them where they're supposed to be and get perfectly good trees out of them.

[SwampDonkey]

From what I gather some of our early Scot's Pine plantings were of poor phenotype. Even at the source location they were poor. Some old farmer or what not, with no attention to quality or phenotype, just went out and collected some seed. Later seed sources proved to me much better through provenance testing. But sawfly or weevil, forget which, really hammer it bad up here. It will naturalize an area pretty good though. I see it spreading in fields and ditches. I seen it planted in some pretty poor soil to and the trees sure show signs of stress.