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What going on with this wood?

Started by MikeH, August 24, 2007, 08:35:14 PM

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MikeH

 I cut some Q.S. White Oak and find this white stripe like sapwood several inches inside the outer sapwood. Is that possible?

limbrat

Thats neat it looks like a scar. Does the grain near the heart have more of a bow than the grain at the true sap wood? Do you think something could have fallen against it and scared it up when it was a saplin and the wound healed over?
ben

MikeH

 I think it was around most if not all of the tree if I remeber, but it does seem to dissapear about 6 to 8 feet up boards.

limbrat

ben

WDH

I bet a stain will blend it all together so that it is not an issue.

Wow, what some nice quarter-sawn white oak :).
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

beenthere

How does it look on the end grain? 
From what I see, it appears to be an injury or stress to the tree.....possibly some backfill over the root system, as white oak isn't very tolerant of that.
Do you know any history of the tree during that growth period?
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Lanier_Lurker

Quote from: WDH on August 24, 2007, 10:38:19 PM
I bet a stain will blend it all together so that it is not an issue.

Wow, what some nice quarter-sawn white oak :).


I have no ideas on the streak, but that is some fine looking wood.  I'm not very knowledgeable about milling, but 12" quarter-sawn boards would come from a pretty good sized tree, right?  Perhaps over 30"?

I have an antique cabinet made from what I believe to be quarter-sawn white oak.  Your wood looks better that the wood my cabinet was made with.

MikeH

 The tree was well over 30" and came from an old farm that was being removed for a freeway(312 Chanhassen, Mn.) I think it was a burr oak, I did not see the leaves.

WDH

MikeH,

I have to repeat myself on this one...............that wood is beyond awesome :).
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

SwampDonkey

I suspect an old logging scar that compartmentalized quick. My father scuffed a white oak with the lawn mower and I can't even see evidence of the scar, not even a blemish.

Looks like some really nice lumber. You folks have many bur oak down there. It's quite rare here, they don't even show it on the map, but it's mostly around Grand Lake, but I have found some 30 miles from here on really old and abandoned farms that have been clear cut twice.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Dodgy Loner

Mike, what you have there is known as false sapwood or "moon ring".  It is basically an area of heartwood where the extractives that normally darken the wood were not produced, leaving an area of heartwood that is almost identical to the sapwood.  However, unlike the true sapwood, the moon ring is composed of dead tissue.  It is thought to be caused by an event of severe stress that interrupts the formation of heartwood, such as heavy frost.  I found a scientific article about it if you'd like to get down to the nitty gritty.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

SwampDonkey

Most interesting, never seen nor heard about it before. Thanks for the information Dodgy.  ;) Not too hard to remember a name like that.  ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

WDH

That is the first that I have heard of moon ring.  Hopefully, it is not common.  I have never encountered it ::).
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

isawlogs

 I have seen that before in red oak .... nevr gave it much thought  at the time  ::)  Now that you bring that up it sure came back to me  :D :D

I have been reading this part of the forum now going on three days (  Tree and Plant I.D. ) I sure learn't me a lot of new things .  :P :P  I need to get my camera fixed or get me a new one  :-\

WDH ... We never did finish our little talk , over the difference between them oaks over at Jeff's house ....  Guess you and I need to plan for a next year visite and get that done  :D
A man does not always grow wise as he grows old , but he always grows old as he grows wise .

   Marcel

Mike_Barcaskey

Quote from: Dodgy Loner on August 27, 2007, 04:55:40 PM
It is basically an area of heartwood where the extractives that normally darken the wood were not produced, leaving an area of heartwood that is almost identical to the sapwood.  However, unlike the true sapwood, the moon ring is composed of dead tissue.

Dodgy, are you saying heartwood is dead tissue?
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

SwampDonkey

Yeah heart is the xylem of the tree and is dead tissue. There is no cell division there, just conducts water and soil nutrients up the tree to the food factory.  The extractives are found in the cell walls and lumens. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

tonich

Quote from: WDH on August 27, 2007, 06:12:14 PM
That is the first that I have heard of moon ring.  Hopefully, it is not common.  I have never encountered it ::).

Same here,
I’ve never seen this onto local oaks, despite we have at least six important spread oak species. Some of them are frost-tender and frost-ribs are not so unusual, especially with Quercus Cerris. I guess, false sapwood is under the bark of the frost injury.
At the same time, false (black) heart is very common on the Common Beech in some provenances here. It is a colored sapwood, reminding of wood’s heart.

Dodgy Loner

Quote from: WDH on August 27, 2007, 06:12:14 PM
That is the first that I have heard of moon ring.  Hopefully, it is not common.  I have never encountered it ::).

I've seen it in lumber, but not from around here.  I suspect that it's more common in frost-prone areas.  I don't think middle Georgia falls under that category ;).
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

Texas Ranger

Lots of things middle Georgia is prone to, but wouldn't think frost was one of them, less it be on a cold one fresh from the bucket. ;D

(Had to get food, or drink as it is, into the conversation.  It's tradition!)
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

Mike_Barcaskey

ok, let's giddy-up

heartwood is not "dead".
while it does not support cell division and is usually "dormant" (for the lack of a better word), providing mechanical support, maintaining the energy-dynamic mass ratio and conducting water and nutrients, it does react to outside stimuli.
When heartwood is injured or is beset upon by a pathegon, it chemically changes and reacts to the condition by setting boundaries (compartmentalization).

the problem is with the way we look at a tree, with our mindset and previous knowledge that is not applicable to trees (case in point, people still say a trees heals. no it doesn't, it seals. a tree can not replace injured or missing tissue in the same spatial place) we look at the tree as if it's biology, the way it lives, is the same as or similar to ours.

as Alex Shigo said in A New Tree Biology, "There is much more to the story. When heartwood is wounded it reacts to set boundaries. How can a "dead" tissue do this? It may be a dead tissue according to animal standards, but it still compartmentalizes pathogens."

It is my argument that reaction to outside stimuli is proof of life
as science advances and we learn more of tree biology we will see there are no "dead" parts to a tree

your thoughts?
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

WDH

I guess "dead" is a relative term when it comes to heartwood........ ::)
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Riles

Reaction to stimuli would be insufficient evidence of life. Molten metal reacts to water used to quench it, but you shouldn't claim it's alive.

I think you have to make the distinction between reactions that occur IN a place and reactions that occur BY the place. If the heartwood is compartmentalizing because the extractives can't make it past the wound that's one thing. If the heartwood cells are producing the extractives to seal the wound, that's another.

Did you know you can't kill a virus? They're not alive, you have to deactivate them (according to my old botany professor).  ;D
Knowledge is good -- Faber College

Mike_Barcaskey

heartwood cells react to the stimuli of injury or pathogen in an ordered fashion

instead of your metal let me use a light bulb. a hot light bulb reacts when water is thrown on it, it breaks. a result of the material shrinking/expanding and breaking
the analogy to heartwood would be that the light bulb would react by changing it's cellular structure to avoid breaking when hit with the water.

heartwood cells could react to the stimuli of injury or pathogen in any number of ways, but they react in such a way as to compartmentilize/fight off the problem. something is clicking at the cellular for the exact thing needed to happen

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

Riles

The heartwood might be changing it's structure, but the changes are being done TO the heartwood, not BY the heartwood.

Along the same lines of your argument, there's a concept that the earth is alive because there are analogues for lungs (the earth "breathes"), circulatory system, can repair itself, etc. (Gaia theory).
Knowledge is good -- Faber College

Dodgy Loner

Well, some heartwood must be dead, else we wouldn't have hollow trees ;).
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

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