Lumber broker[s] needed

blueduck · November 13, 2007, 01:45:47 PM

OK now that I have your attention, I am in need of information so as to be able to expand my sales and get into timber frame timbers....

Does anyone here broker timbers? have a broker or two they work with either buying or selling?

I have one broker and am in need of a competitor broker right now for obvious reasons of not all eggs being put into the same basket.

I have the logs available to me, but without a semi-firm price I just can not commit to a new mill package. My current mill is a Mobile dimension 127, capable to 28 feet on trailer and 44 feet off but I am considering a band mill custom built to length by Cooks [so far the best deal has been from Tim Cook of Alabama for the new mill and package offer and i finally understand why i never trusted a bandmill for the past 20 years].

What I am looking for is a general price list for timber sizes that i can offer as a "this is current" to my banker who is willing to lease the equipment for me [like i really need to get further into debt but its the only way right now] if I can show the price will support the operation.... I dont need a contract hard and fast, all I need is a MOU fob Central Idaho.

Thanks for anyone who can help.... btw all my old brokers have retired or just plain passed on that i used to have years ago, kinda shows that being in business for nearly 22 years going the route of local, regional and back to strictly local sales can get a person stuck, and the internet is not all that great of help in search parameters...

William
Central Idaho

beenthere · November 13, 2007, 01:59:19 PM

Quote from: blueduck on November 13, 2007, 01:45:47 PM
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and i finally understand why i never trusted a bandmill for the past 20 years].

William
Why would the cost of a bandmill cause you to not trust a bandmill..?? :

Tom · November 13, 2007, 05:07:01 PM

If I were going to cut log home logs of considerable length, I would do it with a "push head", bandsaw that wasn't connected to the track. That way, I could build as much track as I desired with nothing more than some angle iron. Log handling, at my age, is difficult, so I would devise a means of turning a long log and moving it on and off of the mill bed. Perhaps a tractor with forks and/or booms with winches. I'll bet I could get into a brand-new one for less than 8 grand from any of the sponsors on the left and not even have to dicker.

I know that Baker and Woodmizer have mills that would suit that bill and Norwood's bread and butter has been a mill like that for years.

Coon · November 14, 2007, 10:52:28 AM

Tom is very correct on the bandmills... What is your reasoning for not trusting bandmills? Is it the overhead cost in setting up, or it it the new learning curve to actually sawing on a bandmill. Either way this is the place to learn one way or another. ;)

LOGDOG · November 14, 2007, 11:16:42 AM

I'll toss this in the ring ... (from past experience) ...

I understand the need to get approved for financing whether it be a lease or purchase. However, the last thing you want is to get financed on the mill and not actually have a legitimate buyer for your product. In fact, one who WILL commit to purchasing from you. This is a fickle market right now in a lot of ways. I was just thinking yesterday that I wouldn't encourage anyone to dive into a big expensive mill right now with fuel being what it is, people pulling back from spending money on their homes because money is tightening up, etc. I think Tom has the right idea in keeping the cost of the mill low. With timbers you could get away with this for sure because the focus is not in making hundreds of trips up and down the track as you would normally if your focus was on the production of lumber per say.

If it were me, I'd take the buyer you have and ask him for a purchase order. Figure in the cost of logs, estimated fuel, blades etc to fill the order. Build in enough profit to cover one of these less expensive mills. Fill the order and your mill is paid for. The next order will feel like you're not even working almost because your machine is paid for and you don't have this big note hanging over your head.

Word to the wise, I've done the lease purchase route and would never do it again or recommend it. If you'd like the specifics on why PM me and I'll sort it out for you. Remember, easy money is expensive money. Easy in ...difficult out.

LOGDOG

LOGDOG · November 14, 2007, 11:59:57 AM

Just been thinking over here. You already have a mill. On top of that ... one that will cut to 44 feet and handle very large logs. Maybe moey would be better spent on a log handling deck to work with your mill since for large beams you're essentially just removing the jacket lumber and leaving the heart. Mighty Mite makes a kick butt log handling deck if you haven't seen it. They're expensive but if nothing else it would give you something to imitate if you had a local fab shop do it.

LOGDOG

fuzzybear · November 14, 2007, 01:24:50 PM

ok, I know this has turned from the origional question. I will put my 2cents worth in and Then try to help you with origional question.
I build custom log homes. I finish 1 to 2 a year. My mill is like yours. I can cut up to ???? with more track extensions. BUT most of my logs and timber is max 48'. Most every builder trys to limit to this size. Why is that you may ask?. It is simple logistics. The industry standard for flat bed trucks is 48'. Anything more becomes oversized loads and costs an oversized price to move.
I am not In a location that is condusive to shipping large quantities of material. You however are in a prime location for moving materials. I would suggest you start by contacting a couple of custom home builders in the Montana, Colorado, and Idaho area. There are quite a few in these states alone.
Be prepared thou. They are looking for very specific timbers. Show them what you have and what you can produce. There is alot of leg work involved. Keep after those companies that are using the type of materials you are producing. It may take a while, but when they give you a chance, put 110% into the order. They will come back again and again. Always admit defeat. If you can't produce what they want, tell them. Make sugestions on alternative ways. BUT NEVER GIVE UP.
Again, I would suggest keeping your current mill and investing in material handleing. If you can't get it off the mill and onto a truck in under 5 min. it's too slow.
But like I said it's only my 2cents worth.

blueduck · November 14, 2007, 03:05:05 PM

Ok first I want to thank you all who have read and replied so far no one must use a broker or there are no brokers who want to take on another mill on the forum..... cause i am after a competitive broker to verify the price of any given product i will saw with the wood available particularly in the long length timber frame category, a very specialized product indeed.

For the folks who wonder why I never had a decent opinion of small bandsaw mills for the past 22 years of being in the business of milling logs, it is simple EVERY bandmill ive worked around or went to look at could not cut a decent chunk of lumber in these soft western woods with any production at all. Tim Cook of Cooks Saws returned a call i had in to them that answered the question from the side of the maker of bandsaw blades, and production mills, years ago and still the companies who produce mills have the saem problems, though most of them have worked out the under power problem for the small mill, they all have problems that they dont counter or teach the buyers of the mills to correct, perhaps it is because they themselves dont know how or maybe they dont care that I can not say..... but he and I talked for over 72 minutes a few days ago and not all about how his mill and bands were better, but how any mill can be made better by using the proper lead on the band itself, having the right tooth pattern, the proper shape of the blade, and proper size wheels for the blade being used, also having good guides and that he has sold many other mill owners roller guides to use and that alone has upgraded the sawing for some folks.... I understand now that the wavy lumber I experienced from all the saws i have went to look at or that have sawn in the same mill yards as i was set up in was from lack of manufacture understanding about the blades in the type of timber I have to saw, Mr Cook also without running anyone down as a competitor told me who he thought produced the best mills on the market today for me to go consider including his among them for the price is all similar, and the shipping cost of the mill in the end will determine the outcome more than likely from a banksters point of view [though the folks at baker quoted me about $10K higher than a couple other companies, they were recievers of Mr Cooks highest praise for best construction of a high production portable bandmill over the others we discussed, which says alot cause they are way closer for shipping purposes]

It has never been an issue of cost [other than high cost for bad production from what I have personally witnessed] and all the marketing iin the world can not cover bad looking lumber or timber or less production than i was already doing with my mill.

On to the broker i have already, I turned down a contract from him a year ago [15 months back] that would have been in my pocket betwen $110-150,000.00 for large size timbers of assorted length plus side lumber off the logs, I did not have the mill capable of sawing what he needed at the time on short notice [best lead time for customizing any mill is 4 weeks and that pushes the next best of 6-8 that i have been quoted] and at the time the log inventory for cutting 80Mbdft of 14x14 timbers was not available to me [mostly cause I had not been looking but it took me 4 months to find a sufficient supply that could have made it work, I now have access to more than what would have been needed just because ive been looking] But he will not give me a purchase order because I just cannot saw [with my current mill in a productive manner, ergo ive been willing to risk getting into a band saw that may or may not be what i hope it to beor not to be from past experience] what he is needing that he does not already have from other mills, or in his yard of reclaimed buildings

Then we have the side lumber issue that will always crop up in the recovery after the main cut, I have folks who will take it and sell it on consignment and as such it will always move and particularly after the builders who know its there start looking for it no matter the cost as long as it is quality, if i wont build with it it wont leave the yard and when i was contracting the lumber yards knew i would send lumber back if it was not what i ordered or expected so I always got the best they had and they know my standards are higher than what the lumber grading books allow for in certain applications [ever see common lumber sold in the 2 and btr bin? Ive called them on it and threatened to call weights and measures for fraud, I dont like paying for #2 and getting #3 stamp framing lumber or standard either for that matter and let everyone know it and my lumber without a stamp is always better grade] I know from the random lengths price average that prices for framing lumber have fallen considerably, even to the point that the lumber being sold is by far less than what I would have to pay for green logs if I was buying such, but I dont have to take a beating on side lumber in a specialty mill production, something that few people who have portable mills understand before getting into them and some never do..... I can not compete with a beaver mill production and volume processing, so I have to make it on special cuts, ergo the timbers for framing larger timber frame houses comes into play, as long as the raw material is available to me I can compete in that market. Shoot when i first started out 22 years ago I sold a couple loads rough sawn small timbers to the local Louisiana Pacific mill so they didnt have to do a short run and set up for something they did not want a huge pile of.

On leasing equipment over buying outright or building it from scratch, I aint getting rid of my current mill, only adding another machine or grouping of machines into the cavvy and pressing onward from there even if it means taking on employees again [I only had a couple fellas employed while building log houses a few years ago but understand employees too and good one are few and far between]. I may not even qualify for financing mostly due to my still fighting foreign banksters over a contract dispute which turned ugly and ive been on the losing end of against the banks and lawyers since i do my own paperwork in court..... for some reason those type of folks dont agree with being independent even though I am wanting to use my credit and their okie dokie and give them interest on my signature [ok so that is another topic altogether and even a different forum.... but I am willing to step into the world of debt again if it means being able to provide additional products that in turn keep my family in the funds we need to move forward in life and grow a business out of the cycle I went into which appears to be coming to the end in that cycle again like before. Yes my mill is paid for, and yes i have kept putting the dollars into it required to saw a product anyone would expect a new mill to produce, would love to get a 1212D mighty mite but again such a mill is limited in size of one pass it can produce, though it would be twice the mill my current mill is, possibly 4 times the mill, but at around $100 grand for the set up it makes me hesitant to rush into even more so than a less expensive bandmill capable of sawing the larger 14,16, 18, 20 24 inch squares. I could build my own mill but I do not need to re-invent the wheel if someone has what i need already engineered... I like to tinker as much as the next fella, but when it comes to a large project that involves time and materials it makes sense to let someone else do the job in 4-8 weeks that would probably take me 6 months to finish the first model and then another few months to work the bug out of the unit and that kind of time is spendy.

As to the length of trucks, there are many 53 foot flatbeds out there but my preference for my limit to saw is 40 feet and that was my limit when building and designing log houses, I have used longer logs, and longer timbers myself in building,and though such are hard to handle they are not hard to ship on a long trailer..... it just gets hard to load the trailer to max weight without getting over max load per axle, and picking up those 53 footers off the hiway once inawhile after they go in the ditch makes me wonder why they ever di stretchout that far sometimes [I have worked partttime for a wrecking yard the past 20 years when certain types of trucks overturn and extra help is needed cause i work for myself i am usually available] I bought my mill secondhand and put it on a trailer, thus the 28 feet on trailer and 44 feet off, and the desire to be able to use the bandmill in the same length as a compliment.

So as the advice is good, and understandable and hopefully helpful to someone else, it still has not given me what i am after..... a new contact for a broker or brokers already selling within the timber frame industry.

Again many thanks for the comments, and I welcome any others too, and hopefully find a broker that is wiling to either work with me or at least talk with my bankster.

William
Central Idaho

Tom · November 14, 2007, 03:31:45 PM

Well, Blueduck, that was quite a soliloquy. :D Its taken me a time to digest it, but your hardware problems seem to be in hand and the off-cuff suggestions unneeded.

I have looked for a broker in my area over the years as well. They seem to have become a lost breed. Small mills once depended on them for the sale of small quantities of lumber here, but apparently the big mills (who were the end customers) decided to go it alone and the brokers lost interest. Most of the taxing authorities put a hurt on the small backyard mills and closed them up too. I guess that had a lot to do with the loss of that part of the industry

We've had two brokers on the forum over the years, but no one for a long time. The ones I'm familiar with worked out of N. Jersey, I think, and Texas. The Ohio one just disappeared and the Texas one has been absent for a couple of years. His dealings were mostly in figured woods and low volume as far as I could tell.

About all we have left are log brokers and they handle stumpage for the mills.

So, I wish I could help you, but don't even know where to start looking.

beenthere · November 14, 2007, 03:37:29 PM

Wow...that was ..... :

:

I think you should become a broker...no inventory problems, and you know both ends of the stem to stern, so to speak.
Because we didn't come up with a broker for you, doesn't mean they are not out there. But looks like there is a void that you could fill.

blueduck · November 15, 2007, 11:15:20 PM

Quote from: beenthere on November 14, 2007, 03:37:29 PM
Wow...that was ..... : :
I think you should become a broker...no inventory problems, and you know both ends of the stem to stern, so to speak.
Because we didn't come up with a broker for you, doesn't mean they are not out there. But looks like there is a void that you could fill.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but Ive brokered my own material before already years ago and some for a couple other fellas, it was just enough headache to keep me out of the business of brokering for others and use the brokers i found at the time..... then the custom local market picked up and I just did not have the time to cut what the brokers were needing from me [once they learn a person can cut switch ties of 22-28 feet they really dont want much else from a fella, but that market is no longer available to me as that broker retired and the company I was shipping to was shut down for "environmental reasons"] I suppose there may still be a market out there for switch ties but it was never really a large market.

I appreciate the input from anyone and everyone.

So just where do the fellas who build timber frame housing get their large long material? I aint really asking for trade secrets, or market shares, just a general idea in case i decide to broker for a few mills.

William
Central Idaho..... Where men are still men and only US senators go to other states to play brokeback bathroom

Haytrader · November 16, 2007, 12:23:10 AM

I can't answer any of your questions either blueduck.

:

But I see that central Idaho has at least one comedian.

:D ;) ;D

Kansas · November 16, 2007, 07:54:06 AM

I dont know if it would help, but you might try calling Arbor Forest Products out of Omaha, Nebraska. They are a lumber and building materials brokerage company. On occasion, they call looking for something unusual. Wether they ever deal in the type of timbers you talk about, I dont know. Ask for Matt.

craigc · November 17, 2007, 07:39:56 AM

I dont know what is going on in the timbers market but in the hardwood lumber bussines brokers are becoming a thing of the past. Eliminate the middle man to cut cost is the cry heard by the lumber buyers. On are end its eliminate the 5% taken from the broker on the sale.