hydraulic pump belt wear on TK 1600

[cantcutter]

Anybody else have a problem with their drive belt for the hydraulic pump breaking after 30 hrs? Its no big deal to keep a spare on hand and replace it, but I think it should last forever. I might change it over to a chain drive if this keeps up.

[WH_Conley]

Check belt pulley alignment. Take the belt off and turn the pump by hand, should be smooth. Had a bearing go out of a haybaler a few years, like to have never fould it, it would just hang once in a while, the belt had to take the instant torque for an instant fefore it would start again. Was on the third belt before it did it while I was watching.

[cantcutter]

The pump is new. As far alignment goes there is none. It is mounted at the factory and that is where it sits. I think that it is just slipping occasionally when the logloader puts a load on it and it is wearing in places along the belt, until it catches and breaks. I am going to try and get more tension into it with a come-a-long and see if I can limit slippage more. My other though besidesa chain is to buy a shaft mount for a woodsplitter and direct shaft driving it, but then I have to cut a hole in my front pully cover.

[Brian_Rhoad]

My Breezewood mill has a chain to drive the hydraulic pump. I asked the manufacturer why he didn't use a belt and he said he couldn't get a belt to hold up very long. The shafts are only about 10" apart center to center so you can't use big pulleys or heavy belts. The chain drive works ok. I just have to shoot some oil on it every couple days.

[rockchucker]

I would think it should last for a long time also.  Too much tension will obviously cook some bearings after a while.  Is there no adjustment for the tension on the belt?  Maybe you should buy two belts.  Belts usually are numbered in 1/2 " increments.  So if the # is 17390 the 17 is the number for the width and the 390 represents a 39 inch belt.  So on and so forth with the 15395  is a skinnier belt than the 17 and it is 39.5 " long.  Then the serpentine belts have a similar numbering system but they are usually numbers like 3030175  which is a 3 rib belt with a 17.5" length.  3050295 would be a 5- rib belt 29.5" long.  3070405 7-rib 40.5" so on and so forth.  I would maybe try going a 1/2 " smaller with the belt than the one you have.  Of course it will stretch over time so you might have to watch it.

So what did TK have to say?  Did you call and ask them?  Has the mill been acting this way the whole time or did it just start?  If it just started then was there any alterations made before it started acting up?

[mike_van]

The best drive setup for a hydraulic pump is direct with a Lovejoy type coupler. The one on my woodsplitter is 1980 vintage, still fine.  I drove one pump with a roller chain, 20 hours, it took the seal out of the pump.  A pump driven with a belt should have an outboard bearing for the strain of the tight belt.  Just my 2 cents.

[cantcutter]

The mill is still new so everything is as it came from the factory. Its an 05 model, but I only have 31 hours on it now. The belt can be tentioned by loosening the pump mount and pulling it by hand and tightening it back up. I like the direct shaft drive idea and have already looked at the coupler, but the problem is that there is an electric clutch on the shaft to drive the band wheels, so the mount cannot be bolted to the crankcase. The belt is a 31 inch v belt so I went with a 30 to see if I can get a little more tention in it.

I will call TK if it continues to be a problem, I thought somebody on here might have one and know what to do about it.

[Larry]

I shucked a belt off a 3-belt new planer in less than 10 hours.  I'm sure the belt was the cheapest the manufacture could find so I went back with quality belts and no problems after couple hundred hours.

Think I would try a quality belt before anything else...maybe ya can get TK to reimburse you.

[1938farmall]

i have been running a 1600 for over a year with no hydraulic trouble (except for cold weather!).  i had the guard off once and noticed the pump belt was a bit loose.  just slid the pump in the slots & tightened the bolts.  the pump is quite small and shouldn't take much hp to drive.  also made an idler for the saw wheel drive belts at the same time.  keeps them from flapping in the breeze and twisting on the big sheave. al

[Kcwoodbutcher]

I have had no problems with the belts on my 1600. The band wheel belts do "flop in the breeze"  but I have never thrown one and any vibration which might be developed is not translated into the wood surface.  Check the pulleys and make sure they are not bent. If they the belt is slipping a lot it will be glazed.

[cantcutter]

Thanks guys
I am going to see how long this new belt goes and see what happens.

[cantcutter]

It lasted five minutes. Guess I have to call TK in the morning.

The pump turns freely by hand with the belt off, until you open any of the valves and then it is nearly impossible to turn by hand.

I am going change the hydraulic filter and see if that makes a difference. The hydraulics work fine until the belt burns off. I can't imagine that that pump is bad that quickly! The temps have dropped in the past few days, maybe the fluid is just too cold to pump.

[Kcwoodbutcher]

Call TK . I run mine at 10 degrees, it's a little slow at first but it works. Your over pressure relief may be set too high causing a strain on the pump at times or it just may be plumbed wrong. Is there any operation you do that causes the engine to strain- horizontal, vertical or log loaders?

[cantcutter]

I called TK and they have no idea, never had anybody report an issue like this, but said it sounds bad  :-\

I drained the oil and checked the intake and return on the tank and they are both clear. It has been running fine up until now. The engine will drop about 100 rpm when the loading large logs and I have bogged it a little in big logs.

What weight oil are you running in the winter? And what filter? I pulled the return line off of the tank and put it in a bucket and the pump is circulating the oil well.

My only thought is that there is a blockage somewhere, but TK rep says it sould not burn belts because the check valves should bypass either way.

If anybody thinks of anything else, please post it... I am at an end for ideas.

[rewimmer]

I have a TK B-20 and kept having a problem with the hyd. feed slowing down or stopping. It would not do it often and then after a few months it got real bad. Stripped the whole system down and found a metal staple from a cardboard box in my feed valve. Had no problems since then.
Robert in Virginia

[cantcutter]

Thanks rewimmer

I am almost to the point where I am going to start taking all the hydraulic connections apart and checking them.

I am tempted to switch it to a chain drive and be done with it. Then the belt will not be the weakest link and I might be able to pinpoint the issue.

[rockchucker]

Oh it should run just fine with the staple in there...KNOT!   

Was the staple from TK packaging or was it introduced to the system after you had been running it?  That could actually be a touch on the unsafe side at the wrong time.  Did you ever let TK know this was in the system? 

Cantcutter...  It sounds like you have way too much load at  normal operating conditions.  I would probably take the pump off and have a hydraulics place test it out for you.  It should be no more drag than a power steering pump on a car.  Or very similar.  Maybe you could get lucky and find a staple too!  Hope everything works out for you.

[rewimmer]

Hello rockchucker,
The staple must have gotten in their during assembly, and probably came from a hyd. parts shipping container.  I have the Lovejoy type coupling on my TimberKing B-20. I had so many assembly screw ups on my mill when I got it home, that after 5 hours I stopped using it. Then disassembled most all of the mill and found miss alignments, square keys missing from sprockets, couplings sliding back and messing shafts up, log turner not assembled properly, etc. The head was so out of alignment that the blades were cracking from the back side. They are selling the mills faster than they can manufacture them. It is a good mill now and seemed to  have been assembled by a bunch of you know what's.  I confronted them about all these problems over the phone and by email and their response was "That those problems were due to the vibration while pulling my mill back to Virginia". So I realized who I was dealing with, so I just fixed all the problems and went my merry way. They are kind enough to send parts to you that will fix these issues.

cantcutter you said you replaced the v belt. I hope you did not purchase the new belt at an auto store. The automotive belts have a different angle on them than the industrial belts that came on your mill. 

Kcwoodbutcher you said your band wheel belts were "flop in the breeze". Is that the v belts on your band wheels or your main drive belt? I would fix either asap if it belonged to me. When you bring the head all the way back and it is eye level  running at 5500 surface feet per minute, then the floppy belt causes the blade to come off or break. It could just wrap around a part of you and cause serious injury. I have had blades break and shoot out of the mill 6 feet and it happened so fast that it was a blur. I worked on and designed machinery for 40 years and have seen some real nasty accidents.

Robert in Virginia

[cantcutter]

cantcutter you said you replaced the v belt. I hope you did not purchase the new belt at an auto store. The automotive belts have a different angle on them than the industrial belts that came on your mill. 



Robert in Virginia

You hit the nail on the head.
After several calls to TK and a full day of down time the rep for TK asked where I was getting the belts from and when I said the hardware store, he said oh....those will not work. I drove across town to a industrial supply company and bought another belt and it worked fine.

I am still questioning what caused the original belt to fail and am holding my breath.

[mike_van]

Most hydraulic's can run ATF just as good as hydraulic oil, but I can't imagine it's that cold in Kentucky that thick oil's your problem?  Or is it?

[WH_Conley]

Run Hydraulic oil in the tractor, ATF in the hydraulics on the mill. Power steering on tractor leaks, dealer said hydraulic oil or atf will work. In cold weather atf flows faster, hydraulic lasts longer without running out. Got to get this fixed if it gets too cold to saw.

Just had to add this because I am in Ky too.

[cantcutter]

I still think a chain drive would solve all my problems, TK says its a bad idea though :-\

I have run ATF in the hydraulics on a few truck and in tractors before without a probem, TK says not to run anything less than grade 32.

No 28 F is not real cold and should not be a problem for grade 46 oil, but it is a little pump and a long way to push it to the end of the mill and back through the valves.

[rewimmer]

Any Anti-Wear Hydraulic oil  "ISO 46" will work in your TK hydraulic system. I would suggest if you should change to another type or ISO number of oil, to contact the tech department of a major oil company for information or research it on line. As I posted above, after working on machinery for around 40 years I learned you do no deviate from the recommended ISO numbers. That Iso number has many packages in it so it will work with that system design for a long time. When guessing what type of oil to use is like mixing different types of gunpowder together when reloading bullets. "It don't work".

http://www.hydraulicsupermarket.com/technical7.html

Robert in Virginia

[Haytrader]

cutter,

Can we assume that you are starting the engine, letting it warm up, and circulating the hydraulic oil by engaging a valve while not under load? This is the only way (that I know of) to warm up the hydraulic oil in cold weather other than a tank or inline heater.

[rewimmer]

I fully understand the problems cold weather has on hydraulics.  I have not cut below +17F but I put a heat lamp under my tank at around +32F for a short period before running. My point was to check before dumping a oil that was designed for a different application into a hydraulic system which could greatly shorten it's life. I have seen hydraulic systems ruined on $375,000.00 machining centers and lathes operated at room temperatures because someone took it upon them selves to change the type of oil that the system was not designed to use. I paid $26,000.00 for my mill and I will not dump power steering fluid into it's system before doing my home work.
Robert in Virginia