Ax Men - Are they also Hiking Men?

[mdvaden]

I had an odd thought tonight watching the Ax Men on History Channel - which by the way, was cool the way they launched the episode with Jimmy Hendrix for a dramatic feel.

But for all the time they spend leveling the forest, crushing the shrubs and mucking on the logging roads, how many of these loggers are hikers? Outdoorsmen that enjoy a nice forest?

Are these guys so burnt out from cutting trees, that they don't enjoy protected forest?

Or are there a bunch of them that enjoy a nice state park or natural forest.

It's not like they need to share tree-hugging, but somehow I get the feeling that their daily work influences their off-time activity and how they view forests.

And maybe in different ways.

Anyone know what the recreational mentality of these type of workers is?

[Paul_H]

Tarring with some fairly broad strokes there.

[Furby]

Agreed!

BUT....... I just watched Modern Marvels: Alaska Fishing episode and one fellow said that after 12 years on that factory boat, he eats very little fish.

[Paul_H]

There is a large group of loggers here in Pemberton that have worked closely with DFO for years building and maintaining hatcheries and other stream work as volunteers

I'm trying to figure out if the first post was made out of ignorance,arrogance or wide eyed wonderment.

[Gary_C]

I missed tonights episode so I really do not know where you are coming from with that "guys so burned out from cutting trees" comment.

I am a logger and there are many ways I enjoy a forest from bringing sunlight to a forest floor, walking and driving thru the forest, and from enjoying the warmth and comfort of my home that was built from trees from those forests.

I wouldn't say I am burned out but I sure am tired at night and sleep very well.  ;D ;D

But maybe I do not know what a "nice" or "protected" or "natural" forest truly is. Could you define that for me?    ???

[mdvaden]

There is a large group of loggers here in Pemberton that have worked closely with DFO for years building and maintaining hatcheries and other stream work as volunteers

I'm trying to figure out if the first post was made out of ignorance,arrogance or wide eyed wonderment.

Maybe you are over-thinking it?

It's almost a yes or no answer.

If I don't work in logging, it would have to be a question of ignorance. And there is no point supplying answers I don't have.

On the other hand, since I have grown up in this half of Oregon, it's not ignorance to say that I've never met a logger while hiking or camping. But I see no need to base an answer off just that observation alone.

I missed tonights episode so I really do not know where you are coming from with that "guys so burned out from cutting trees" comment....

But maybe I do not know what a "nice" or "protected" or "natural" forest truly is. Could you define that for me?    ???

By burned out, I mean a hard days work. I was wondering if it was the reverse of how some guys work in an office most of the day, get tired from work, but would rather do something outdoors when they get home, than stay indoors, whether go for a walk in the park, mow the lawn, etc..

But overlapping this, I was curious about whether their particular daily "natural" environment, influenced how they feel about getting out into the wild.

As far as your question about "nice" or "protected", what I had in mind was established forests and trails set aside for recreation. Saddle mountain trail, Eagle Creek, Neahkahnie mountain.

Maybe there is a simpler way to express and answer this:

For anyone who understands and has been around loggers, in general, do you find that they enjoy the outdoors and hiking as much as other folks in the general populace - do they like camping at Nehalem Bay, hiking Eagle Creek trail, walking around the Olympic National Forest?

But almost any way we look at it, these guys are "in the woods". And maybe their daily workshift of in the woods caps their desires for the outdoors.

As a hypothesis, I would guess that whereas being in an office would make someone outdoors-hungry for a hiking trail, that working in a wooded area would leave someone less nature-hungry in regards to getting out and away.

[Gary_C]

Perhaps you should consider that loggers do not get "burned out" because they enjoy what they do and if they feel a need to relax, they can just shut off the saw or machine and just sit and enjoy for the moment all the beauty of the forest around. No need to take a walk, they are already where you long to be.  8)

But then again, I should not be telling everyone this because it may get to DanG crowded out there.   :(

[Jeff]

On the other hand, since I have grown up in this half of Oregon, it's not ignorance to say that I've never met a logger while hiking or camping.

Have you ever met a Vegas show girl while camping? A crab fisherman?  A proctologist? A Mechanic? A salesman? How do you know? How many loggers out there wonder why they have never met an arborist camping?  Probably none. Its a big world and if we're out and about enjoying it, we are probably not focused on the occupations of those around us or really even care.   Loggers don't look like Paul Bunyan and probably don't wear suspenders and hard hats and don't wear labels that I know of other then those that others may try to paste on them.  Unless you walked up to every person you ever saw in the woods while you were out and asked them what they did for a living, then how would you know.  You might have been in the middle of a whole nest of em...

It's not like they need to share tree-hugging, but somehow I get the feeling that their daily work influences their off-time activity and how they view forests.

I can see Paul's wondering why such a question. Whether it was meant to or not, it seems to infer a bunch. Its almost like you have loggers painted in your mind to be involved in some sort of destructive behavior that would negatively effect the things that you enjoy by comparisons in their work environment to a park setting.

But for all the time they spend leveling the forest, crushing the shrubs and mucking on the logging roads, how many of these loggers are hikers? Outdoorsmen that enjoy a nice forest?

To someone that worked in the woods, the way you painted your question was offensive. The basic question without all the loaded adjectives would not be.

"Do guys that work in the woods everyday get tired of being in the woods and not enjoy it any longer?"

That's my question above. I already know the answer because I've worked around and with hundreds of them.

No. They don't get tired of it and most certainly enjoy it and appreciate it and understand that its ALL a nice forest.

[Arich]

Perhaps you should consider that loggers do not get "burned out" because they enjoy what they do and if they feel a need to relax, they can just shut off the saw or machine and just sit and enjoy for the moment all the beauty of the forest around. No need to take a walk, they are already where you long to be.  8)

But then again, I should not be telling everyone this because it may get to DanG crowded out there.   :(

x2 for me there Gary. A huge part of the reason that I work in the woods is because of the amount of time I get to spend in the woods. Solitude is a beautiful thing.

[Cedarman]

I've worked outdoors my whole life. When I get tired of cutting trees, I wonder what is over the hill and head out.  I hike for enjoyment anywhere I can. I even go underground in caves.  The loggers I know like the outdoors. 

My bet is that most loggers like the view of a pristine woodland and most don't figure the footage in dollars and cents. Many look at it as, "I wonder how the hunting is here"? They look at it with enjoyment. When I see a big tract of cedar, I don't necessarily go into business mode.

[Phorester]

Most loggers in my area are outdoors oriented.  Most of what I hear them talking about is hunting and fishing, mostly in their own locality.  One I know goes deep sea fishing a couple times a year.  One talked to me about the good time he had the previous Sunday with his family on a picnic on the Skyline Drive.

I know as a Forester - granted, not the in-the-woods hard physical labor day after day as a logger -  I still enjoy the woods in my off time.  Hunting, fishing, camping, hiking.

[SeeSaw]

Jeff you sure nailed it with your comment of being offensive with the way the statement was worded with all the adjectives.  Maybe it was not meant that way?? However, that's exactly how I took it whether it was meant that way or not.  Before I even read to the bottom of the post.

"But for all the time they spend leveling the forest, crushing the shrubs and mucking on the logging roads, how many of these loggers are hikers? Outdoorsmen that enjoy a nice forest?"

I don't know about most loggers but I'm guessing that they enjoy the forest just as much or more as any one of us do.  Personally, I love my woods for many reasons. Hunting, Hiking, watching the wildlife etc.  But I also harvest trees from it as well.  It's not just for a single purpose!!

[Roxie]

Actually, if you go to Stump Branch Loggings website, they have a category of pictures called, "In the Woods" and they are breath taking.  Those pictures have only to do with the incredible beauty of woods and nature.  I'd say that based on those pictures, they appreciate it. 

[twobears]

i guess you missed the part where one of those ax men was talking about losing a good friend in a logging accident..maybe,because that tough guy was crying you missed it where he said he and his son took off for a couple of days and spend time in the woods just relaxing to try and get over the lose of a good friend.
just because a man cut trees down doesn,t mean the wood isn,t important to him and or he doesn,t wanted be that..i worked in the woods for years and i also spend alot of time just relaxing in the woods on my days off.i log it because i enjoy being outside and i enjoy hard work..i also enjoy keeping the forest healthy...yes,healthy..it seems good to go back into ares i logged a few years later and seeing a nice healthy forest.
i think alot of these tree hugger types need to take lessons on what a healthy forest is.i live in new york sate and we have a 6 million acre so-called forever wild state park..i live the idea of protected land ..protected from development but,it makes me sick to see such a waste of timber..if millions of rotting trees is a good thing i must be missing something because i,de much rather see controlled logging cut in there and have nice healthy trees.
i used to go for a canoe ride every sunday in the good weather..i,de paddle up a wild rver about two miles.then,i,de hike thur a very nice stand of black cherry trees.that area was logged at one time and there was some very nice cherry..there was MILLIONS !!! of dollars of timber growning there...but,theres no logging allowed..one saturday morning the wind blow for 15 minutes and it all went down.now,all i can do is paddle up the river and stand on the bank.i can see for miles and most every trees is gone.theres trees piled 30 feet high..what,a waste...but,the tree hugger types think that the way it should be..i wonder if they know how many whitetailed deer died in those blow downs..we logged blowdowns outside the park and in the winter we found alot of deer that got trapped in the blowdowns and died...i logged forest is a healthy forest and non-logged forest is dieing a slow death.
i,ve been out west and seen the clearcuts..ya,they don,t look pretty,but,go into those cuts a few years after there logged and see whats there..a fresh batch of new trees,healthy trees!! and all kinds of wildlife..whats in old growth timber?? a couple spotted owls??
i worked on a 11 acre clearcut here once..man,talk about take heat..the locals got down right rude..i took the time to explaine why we did it and they had a big change of heart..it was planted in norway spruse(junk trees) now,it,s 11 acres of nice white pine.which came up on there own after we got rid of those junk/four to six stems per trunk,nothing but limbs norways.

delbert

PS:to answer your ??,,every logger i know spends his free time in the woods,,fishing,hunting,fur trapping,camping,canoeing,ect,ect,ect and we enjoy watching the sun come up and set,we really enjoy being outside on those nice bluebird days when,all the inside workers are wishing they where outside instead of behind a desk or in a factory.

[snowman]

I'm not going to do the broad brush thing and say every tree higging enviro lives in some big city in a condo with no tree in sight but I will say most loggers including myself do this brutal dangerous work because 1, we love being in the woods all day and 2, because we like to live in a small town in a rural area, not in NYC , LA, SF etc. Now, WHO is it that really loves nature?

[Ron Scott]

I work with a lot of loggers and most of our conversations on a regular basis are about hunting, fishing, camping, and the forest landscape. Most can't wait to get their days work done and then go hunting or fishing with their kids depending upon the season. Many of our recreation infrastucture of hiking , ORV, and snowmobile trails have been developed by the loggers during their timber harvesting operations.

They are an asset to implementing "multiplel use management" of the forests.

[mdvaden]

Jeff you sure nailed it with your comment of being offensive with the way the statement was worded with all the adjectives.  Maybe it was not meant that way?? However, that's exactly how I took it whether it was meant that way or not.  Before I even read to the bottom of the post.

Paul H's reply including the hatchery, or Roxie's reply about the photo albums are what would be hitting the nail on the head.

Hitting the nail on the head, is the answer to the question. And those answered the question (in relatively concise posts too).

Another example of hitting the nail on the head, is Ron Scott's reply about regular basis discussions of hunting, fishing, camping, etc..

That's exactly what I was asking about.

Furby's reply about the fisherman and fish, hit the nail on the head, because it was an illustrative answer.

i guess you missed the part where one of those ax men was talking about losing a good friend in a logging accident..maybe,because that tough guy was crying you missed it where he said he and his son took off for a couple of days and spend time in the woods just relaxing to try and get over the lose of a good friend.

That's partially nailing it on the head. The answer part.

The "guess" part is speculative, since the original post is right in front of you. I did not ask about one or two or a few specific loggers shown in the video. The video merely inspired a question. The question is broad-based about loggers in general.

[Tillaway]

For anyone who understands and has been around loggers, in general, do you find that they enjoy the outdoors and hiking as much as other folks in the general populace - do they like camping at Nehalem Bay, hiking Eagle Creek trail, walking around the Olympic National Forest?

Camp at Nehalem Bay, sure, while you fish there.  Hike Eagel Creek trail,  if your girl friend wants to.  Walking around Olympic National Forest, that seems to be required while hunting.

One reason this lively hood appeals to them is that they are outdoors.  They will see things everyday that most folks only hope to see on their occasional hike or summer camping trip.  The very nature of the work fullfills this desire. 

[SeeSaw]

I did not mean to rile you or offend you if I have. I'm just in agreement with Jeff's comment that maybe your statment could have been worded differently as it seems to infer that loggers have a very negative impact on the forest.  That's literally how I took it whether it was intended or not.  That's it!!

[mdvaden]

I did not mean to rile you or offend you if I have. I'm just in agreement with Jeff's comment that maybe your statment could have been worded differently as it seems to infer that loggers have a very negative impact on the forest.  That's literally how I took it whether it was intended or not.  That's it!!

I understand you...

But the opening should be fine either way.

Consider landscaping for example: Aside from maintaining finished landscapes, design / build installation workers spend 95% of their days gutting old plants from yards, working in dirt or soil, moving rocks, raking debris for lawns, etc.. Basically, it's the last fragment of the installation that's even green and pretty, when the sod and barkdust go down. Most of the time is spent putting pipe in trenches, glueing PVC, backfilling rootballs.

So if I were to refer to landscape installation as "working in trenches, moving dirt, culling old plants and moving rock", there is no way that would be offensive. Aside from a few niches, for the bulk of full-scale installation, the descriptions would be "dead-on-balls-accurate".

The description does not degrade the final product and skill level.

Since I was referring to "logging" which the show has covered a lot of, hopefully people don't think I intended "forestry" which is a broader umbrella.

Within my own trade, I can't say that landscape installs affect my mentality about forests. Although I integrate a mimicking of forests into landscaping. But I do realize that the nature of landscape installs makes me dislike the installation phase compared to working in the growing developing phase.

So as far as what you wrote, no offence intended and no offence taken.

[Paul_H]

mdvaden,

I viewed your website and understand your need to get out into a real forest once in awhile.Your work demands a clean slate to begin and even though you apparently detest destruction of the natural enviroment,your business depends on it.

[Tom]

As a hypothesis, I would guess that whereas being in an office would make someone outdoors-hungry for a hiking trail, that working in a wooded area would leave someone less nature-hungry in regards to getting out and away.

That's why Hypothetical arguments seldom work.  I spent 20 years in the bowels of a computer room and in an office with no, or few, windows.  Since leaving that industry in 1988 and spending more time fishing and most of my time sawing, I have had absolutely no desire to take off for a day or so and go sit in an office or hide out in a computer room or take 15 minutes at a coffeepot.

I do find that there is a society developing (yuppies?) who make decisions about my worth, my education and my intelligence because I show up at their abode to perform a service and use my hands.   To these people I am an uneducated bumpkin, living from hand to mouth, who falls way short of their image of themselves and their successes, as they work in an office and sit at a desk.  Those with above average intelligence apparently even have a window.

The loggers  with whom I work are knowledge hungry.   Because I have some modicum of interest in tree and plant species, I am bombarded with questions when I visit their work-sites.  They are pretty smart in that they recognize that ignorance can be fixed.  I've learned a lot from their society in the respect of "acknowledging ignorance isn't a fault or weakness.".

Most of those with whom I associate, can't wait to get off of work to get home and play with the kids.  They have off-time businesses working in the woods in land prep or planting.  They spend more time in a rowboat fishing for bream than I spend on my dock fishing for catfish.  They love to hunt and can be found at the local sports store talking about Camo or selling tree stands that they make on their off-time.

I know that a lot of the population believes that Loggers are bad and that their aim is destruction.  But that just isn't right. Loggers depend on the forest for their livelihood.  Anyone with a little foresight can see that it is in their best interest not to destroy it.  Even when working in one of their "clear-cuts" I've seen loggers having a picnic lunch with their family, who came out to visit.

Loggers will make a pass around the landing looking for deer tracks or turkey tracks from the night before too.  They will talk of the wildlife they saw during the day when they meet at the landing for a break, or sometimes it will come blaring over a CB Radio from a Skidder in the woods, " Holy Cow!!  Y'all oughta see this big buck I just jumped.  He's headed North from the landing about where that big Oak tree is..".

Many of them, Florida loggers, go to North Carolina and walk the  Appalachian trail on their vacations.  Some do it on long weekends and it's a special thing for their children to be old enough to be taken along.

We find some from 'Up North' will rent a cabin in our State Forests because the trees are different.  Some will take a bus-man's holiday and work in Southern Woods for awhile just to see the difference.

I think that the perpetuation of the idea that people who work in the woods, whether loggers, foresters or mechanics, having the mentality of destruction, is not only a detriment to the visions we, as woodsmen, are trying to perpetuate, but also places the questioner in the camp of the Environmental Wackos.  It might not be true, but shading the voracity of one's own profession is never in you best interest in the long run.

There might have been a time when people didn't see that they could be doing harm by cutting every tree, but that has pretty much been fixed.  There are still people who see no harm in poaching bear for gall bladders, or elephants for ivory, but that doesn't translate to Hunter's are bad and just want to kill.

Perhaps asking if Loggers liked to hike after work is a valid question, it was the lead-in to the question, setting the premise that loggers had a "destruction mentality" that caused me to take a double-take. 

[mdvaden]

mdvaden,

I viewed your website and understand your need to get out into a real forest once in awhile.Your work demands a clean slate to begin and even though you apparently detest destruction of the natural enviroment,your business depends on it.

That's basically true about the natural environment - but sort of dependent on how "natural environment" is defined.

Unlike many Ceritified Arborists that may get very sentimental about a lot of trees in general, I'm not emotion-driven. I'd probably make the perfect board member for the Oregon state board of forestry.

The way I view forest land is that "everybody gets something, and nobody gets everything". I believe that forest land has to be managed, which certainly includes harvesting.

Perhaps asking if Loggers liked to hike after work is a valid question, it was the lead-in to the question, setting the premise that loggers had a "destruction mentality" that caused me to take a double-take. 

There is nothing in the first post that deals with a destruction mentality.

Maybe it's important for you to ask how you might extract "destruction mentality" from the opening post.

Like if you read a much later reply of mine mentioning landscaping, if I were to describe landscaping at gutting-out old plants, digging holes and moving rock, how would that connote "destruction mentality".

It's merely mentioning aspects of the work environment.

I grew up on acreage, and we removed a lot of trees of all sizes. Every time we did it, we got dirty, other small plants got "creamed" and trees disappeared. Even urban tree removals fit the description. Roofs get dirty with chips flying in the wind, lawns can get dented with chunks of wood, and shrubs frequently get broken if the work location is confined.

So if a landscaper or logger does not like a description of their work environment, I say "Cowboy Up": what's wrong with a work-place description?

In reviewing the opening post, I don't even think I implied a destruction environment. Plants and groundcover almost have to get stomped to harvest trees if it's going to be a full harvest of some acreage.

To me, destruction is irreversible damage to the soil, streams and species, not clearing vegetation for harvesting.

[twobears]

if a man logs for several years and sticks with it  you can bet he loves the outdoors..if he didn,t he wouldn,t put up with feet of snow,bone chilling cold,being out in downpours or changing weather in the fall and he couldn,t take working with a chainsaw iin 90 degree heat and he sure as heck would get beatup the way loggers do.

[Paul_H]

That's basically true about the natural environment - but sort of dependent on how "natural environment" is defined.

yep