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Author Topic: My first timber sale  (Read 4929 times)

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Offline Good Feller

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My first timber sale
« on: May 02, 2008, 01:10:39 PM »
Hey guys,

I'm new to here.  I'm  28 years old and a 2007 forestery graduate from Iowa State.   I didn't know how to pay for college so I joined the military..... that came with a field trip to Iraq for a year.  Anyways, the longer I was in school the more I realized the importance of it.    I like hunting, trapping, and especially cutting wood.   I recently took the professional timber harvesters course in Missouri.  Learned a lot and I'm MUCH safer now.
I also do not like video games or cars with loud exhaust.  Just thought I'd throw that in there LOL

So, I don't claim to know everything just because I have a degree.  That's why I'm here asking questions.... Iowa State introduced me to forestry and most importantly taught me how to learn!  What I lack is experience. 

Ok, enough about the introduction.  I've got a guy interested in having a timber sale.  Ironically, the trees are already marked.  He had a logger come in about a year ago and mark them but he didn't offer enough money.  So that should help me out.  One quick question here, that logger marked some standing old dead white oaks.  What was up with that?  I mean there was no bark on them they were so old/dead. Were these hazard trees or could they be salvaged? 

There's about 20 acres of white oak and walnut.  I don't think it would be too hard to log it, it's not real steep.    I'm basically getting my feet wet on this deal.  I don't really know what i'm doing.  I'm scared i'm going to confuse veneer quality trees with sawlogs or vice versa.  I've got a good idea on how to scale trees (I will use scribner).  Do I just scale the obvious logs in the the tree... like just the first obivious log at ground level?  Or do I include lower quality logs from higher up??  Is it correct that I should underestimate the total volume 10-15% to keep the loggers happy and to adjust for internal defects? 

I'm thinking about going to a nearby mill and seeing if I can get a lesson on different log qualities and prices paid for them.  Can any of you guys remember your first timber sale and what you did wrong or what you would have done differently?  What should I do to prepare for this?  Hopefully the harvest will occur this coming winter.  Any help will be appreciated. THANKS












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Offline beenthere

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Re: My first timber sale
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2008, 02:13:14 PM »
Good Feller
Welcome to the Forum.
ISU Forestry....that's a good place to be from.  :)  beenthere '62

Here is a chance for you to find the local Forester and find out how to apply some of the Forestry training that you rec'd with a person who has some experience.

Also, prowl around using the search function here, and pick out names like Ron Wenrich, Ron Scott, and a whole bunch of others who have offered good advice on logging and timber selling. Dig around in the Forum titled "Ask a Forester" for some subjects that will fit your needs.

There are publications that can help you grade logs, into sawlogs, veneer, and other uses. These pubs won't be strange to you with your Forestry training.

Where did you have summer camp? Did you get a management option, or into products?

Good to have you aboard.
south central Wisconsin
 It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Offline bigtreesinwa

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Re: My first timber sale
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2008, 02:26:09 PM »
Cool! I'm glad I'm not the only 28 year old on here. And I also like to be outside. I'm an engineer by trade so am stuck in front of a computer all day but try to spend every nice evening outside and up in the woods whenever possible.

I own a Husky 455 chainsaw. Bought it about two months ago. Took a course at the local community college to learn how to operate it (boy, I learned a lot. There is a lot to those machines) and now starting to use it. Mostly on downed wood so far but occasionally I fell a small diameter alder here and there.

What are the landowner goals for the forest? I think that's a great place to start, and one that he may or may not have thought through. If he's managing the property for timber and the trees are not mature, you could release the most valuable timber on the property by culling the least valuable trees. It'd make for a higher quality - and sustainable forest - but you won't be maximizing your returns on this timber sale.

If he's looking at converting to non-forestry (hope not), then you would cut the most valuable trees on the property and only leave the legal minimum of crooked trees prior to converting to non-forestry. I wouldn't recommend that approach but it works for some.

Some of your other questions are more techical than I can answer so I'll defer to other people here.

Offline Good Feller

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Re: My first timber sale
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2008, 02:42:52 PM »
thanks for the replies so far.  Beenthere, I took the Ecosystem Management option,,, also had my summer camp up in Michigan.  Bigtreesinwa.  I also have a 455 husky!  It's a good saw! I've got a 20 inch bar on it,,, pulls it pretty good actually.   
Good Feller

Offline Ron Scott

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Re: My first timber sale
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2008, 04:29:28 PM »
Nothing against logger's, I work with them all the time, but I've had to remark many stands that a logger first marked for the landowner. The logger is after the best trees, but in simple terms we "take out the worst first" so remarking the stand might be necessary for the best long term timber management.

The logger also often practices "diameter limit cuts" reather than a true selection selection harvest by working in all the diameter classes.

The logger marked the dead oak trees because he probably just wanted them out of the way, they were a safety hazard, or maybe he could get a log out of them, or he would market them for pulpwood or firewood or he thought that he was doing the landowner a favor by cutting them. We usually save such trees for wildlife den, snag, or cavity trees usless they are a true safety hazard to the logger and forest users.

I worked under the guidance of a professioanl forester for at least 3+ years before I made my first timber sale. If you can. I suggest that you try to work with a "seasoned profesional" for awhile and learn as much as you can from them before going off on your own. Timber is just one part of the forest ecosystem and you need to work with all the parts. A little experience on the ground now will serve you greatly along with your learning experience at Iowa State, a good forestry school from what I know about it.

~Ron

Offline woodmills1

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Re: My first timber sale
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2008, 05:56:39 PM »
Good luck and you will get good advice here.  BTW I like a good exhaust tone and I am pushing 57.  :D
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

Offline semologger

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Re: My first timber sale
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2008, 11:32:07 PM »
Good feller were did ya take your class in mo at? Welcome aboard.

Offline deeker

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Re: My first timber sale
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2008, 12:10:00 AM »
Good feller, thanks for your service.   8) 8) 8)

Kevin
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Offline sILlogger

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Re: My first timber sale
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2008, 12:38:05 AM »
a white oak and walnut job isn't a very good one to learn on...mistakes in cutting, bucking, and marketing could cost several thousand dollars.  The problem with trying to buddy up with just anybody in the logging industry is that some people are apt to try to buy the timber out from under you...not always..but something to be aware of.
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Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: My first timber sale
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2008, 06:44:54 AM »
One thing that most guys forget about forest management is that it isn't what you cut, but what you leave that matters.  Aside from diameter limit cutting, you get those that do partial cuts or thinnings.  They fall into the trap of letting the small stuff grow.  These often become nothing more than cut the best...leave the rest types of operations.  The stuff left behind often contain poor species, poor form and poor growth.  Partial cutting involves leaving crop trees.  If you don't know about crop trees, you need to get with an experienced forester.

How many dead trees are you talking about?  In the past, I worked in mountains of dead timber, mainly oak.  They were gypsy moth kill, and they produced some decent lumber.  It all depends on how long its been dead.

Loggers put the value in every board that falls off of a sawlog or a piece of veneer.  Bucking is the most important job in the hardwood industry.  Sadly, few guys are really adept at it and few courses are offered.  Find a good mill that will show you the basics.  It might not be a bad idea to try to get a job with them.  Even if you start out at the mill level and see how logs cut out, you'll get a good learning opportunity.  I've often said that foresters and loggers should spend time in the mill.

The thing you're going to have to learn is how to identify defect that's on the inside of the tree from what's on the outside of the log or tree.  A log buyer is really good at that, if he has any experience.  When you can do that in the woods, then you can put a value on logs and trees.  I know guys in the woods for a long time that can't do it really well.  They usually buy by the load instead of stumpage.

As for scaling trees, you'll quickly learn that limb wood is not considered sawlogs.  You'll also learn not to scale too hard beyond a crotch.  Doing so, you'll be overscaling the tree and in mainly low value wood.  In short, you'll lose a lot of money.  If you are doing it as a consultant and the loggers can't make scale, you'll have very few sales.

If I were giving estimates for standing timber, I would do a simple variable plot cruise of the area.  I would highlight the trees I think should be removed and note the quality.  At the end, crunch numbers and come up with a value.  Saves the time of marking the trees, then finding that the owner was just fishing for value. 

Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Offline Craig

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Re: My first timber sale
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2008, 08:00:52 AM »
HVIP http://www.hardwoodvip.org/

A good place to start for how to buck hardwood.

Craig Martin
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Offline Norm

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Re: My first timber sale
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2008, 08:23:28 AM »
Welcome to the FF Good Feller. Too bad you're so far away from me I'd give you my unprofessional opinion of the stand.

The standing dead WO sounds like some of the logs we see brought in by Joe Homeowner here. Just a little tough on the sawmill blades. :D

Offline Good Feller

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Re: My first timber sale
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2008, 01:39:28 PM »
Thanks for the comments guys!!!   8)
I'd love to work with a seasoned forester for a couple years but that's not an option.  I don't know of any close by.  I work full-time and gas is 4 bucks a gallon.  I just bought a house and I have a kid on the way.  It makes things tuff.  I'm going to do this the old fashioned way I guess.  Trial and error.  Everything will sink in better that way anyhow.  Got to get my feet wet eventually.  I'm learning A LOT over the internet thanks to guys like you.  I just have to keep thinking and asking.  
Going to Iraq was a good experience for me.  I learned cutting trees isn't all that dangerous compared to driving humvees in the military.  Don't thank me,,, I was just doing my job.  It was just a job.  Thank the families of the guys that didn't come home. 
As for loud exhaust,,, if it sounds mean and like it has balls,,,,, that's cool!  If it sounds like a really loud annoying weed eater that all these high school kids drive...... that's not cool.  We have a lot of that going on in this area.  Guess I'm getting old. 
I took the Professional Timber Harvesters course in Macon, Missouri last fall/winter with Joe Glenn from the Missouri forest Products Assoc.  Plunge cutting is so cool!  I will never cut a big tree any other way.  Nothing but good has came from that assoc. 
I'm aware of forest management obviously,,,, but again not a lot of experience though.  I'm confused now on what trees to mark.  I don't want to leave nice big/straight oaks to die and rot.  I don't want to "high grade" it either.  I know the future of this stand depends on my decisions.  It makes me nervous because I care.  Should I just mark a few of the big ones?  Should I mark a few big ones and a few smaller sized ones?  This is only 20 acres.  If I leave half of the big ones it's not going to be much of a sale.  
  If there are plenty of smaller good formed white oaks underneath these monsters, then won't they grow up as replacements?  Then the cycle will start all over again,,,, what's the big deal????  I'm kinda skeptical about the whole high grading thing.  Sounds good in theory.  The other scenerio is what if there isn't any regeneration under these monsters?  The increased light should trigger sprouting around the stumps and roots,sprouting of acorns the skidder tires pushed in the ground,,,, the little seedlings that come up will have the same genetics as the tree cut won't it?  A few years afterwards, go back in and cut out some of the trash saplings/trees that are preventing the really good ones from growing. 
Everything revolves around money.  I don't drive 60 miles round trip everyday to work for nothing.  Lets face it people aren't going to waste the time and the money it takes to do a harvest to just take a couple nice logs.  If we can't take ALL the good ones then what makes it ok to take SOME of the good ones? Either way, holes are still created in the canopy and the "stunted poor qualities trees" nearby are given the chance to grow and reseed that specific area.  In my eyes, by taking SOME you are getting the same "highgrading" effect,,,, just in a slower fashion.    What do you guys think?















Good Feller

Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: My first timber sale
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2008, 05:24:40 PM »
Let's see if we can go over this again.  Forest management is more about what you leave instead of what you take.  I've seen lots of woodlots that have been thinned too hard with diameter limit cuts and with high grade operations.  I've also explained it to farmers as not sending your best milkers to market.

The thinking is always that the smaller understory trees will be released and be the next forest.  Wishful thinking in my opinion.  Trees go through several different growth stages.  In the first stage, there is lots of juvenille growth.  That's were your young sapling bolts up through the forest to get up close to the canopy.  Its a time of rapid growth.  Without release, the tree will stagnate.

The next stage is where its putting on growth and producing girth and seed.  Not much of that seed will amount to anything unless there is adequate sunlight.  The only way to increase girth is to have adequate room for crown expansion.  Without room for crown expansion, the tree stagnates and may die.

The last stage is when you get into the overmature stage where growth slows down, flowering slows, and disease starts to effect the tree.  Eventually, the tree will die.

What you are trying to tell me is that you want to release a tree that is beyond the juvenille stage and expect it to respond like a juvenille.  Ain't gonna happen.   You are also trying to tell me that if you don't harvest the trees now, that they will jump to the overmature stage and die.  They will, but probably not as quickly as you are describing.

If you don't have adequate regeneration, then you have to make provisions for it.  A lot of guys bypass this step.  You may be looking at shelterwood cuttings or seed tree, depending on the species you are dealing with.  You also want to improve your genetics whenever possible.  You're not going to do that by getting rid of your best trees and allowing the pipsqueaks do the reforestation.  Stump sprouts aren't really that good of a source of regeneration for sawlog quality timber.

I just sawed up a bunch of veneer rejects on the mill.  The reason they were rejected was entirely due to the last harvest.  It was cut so hard that it forced epicormic branching, which caused defect.  That created a loss of the landowner and the logger. 

As for the 20 acre woodlot, you could do some group selection to get some forest regeneration in some areas.  You can also take out the poorer quality stuff in other areas.  You will be able to harvest again in 15-20 years by using sensible thinnings.  High grading is once and done. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Offline bigtreesinwa

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Re: My first timber sale
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2008, 07:59:30 PM »
Let's see if we can go over this again.  Forest management is more about what you leave instead of what you take.  I've seen lots of woodlots that have been thinned too hard with diameter limit cuts and with high grade operations.  I've also explained it to farmers as not sending your best milkers to market.

The thinking is always that the smaller understory trees will be released and be the next forest.  Wishful thinking in my opinion.  Trees go through several different growth stages.  In the first stage, there is lots of juvenille growth.  That's were your young sapling bolts up through the forest to get up close to the canopy.  Its a time of rapid growth.  Without release, the tree will stagnate.

The next stage is where its putting on growth and producing girth and seed.  Not much of that seed will amount to anything unless there is adequate sunlight.  The only way to increase girth is to have adequate room for crown expansion.  Without room for crown expansion, the tree stagnates and may die.

The last stage is when you get into the overmature stage where growth slows down, flowering slows, and disease starts to effect the tree.  Eventually, the tree will die.

What you are trying to tell me is that you want to release a tree that is beyond the juvenille stage and expect it to respond like a juvenille.  Ain't gonna happen.   You are also trying to tell me that if you don't harvest the trees now, that they will jump to the overmature stage and die.  They will, but probably not as quickly as you are describing.

If you don't have adequate regeneration, then you have to make provisions for it.  A lot of guys bypass this step.  You may be looking at shelterwood cuttings or seed tree, depending on the species you are dealing with.  You also want to improve your genetics whenever possible.  You're not going to do that by getting rid of your best trees and allowing the pipsqueaks do the reforestation.  Stump sprouts aren't really that good of a source of regeneration for sawlog quality timber.

I just sawed up a bunch of veneer rejects on the mill.  The reason they were rejected was entirely due to the last harvest.  It was cut so hard that it forced epicormic branching, which caused defect.  That created a loss of the landowner and the logger. 

As for the 20 acre woodlot, you could do some group selection to get some forest regeneration in some areas.  You can also take out the poorer quality stuff in other areas.  You will be able to harvest again in 15-20 years by using sensible thinnings.  High grading is once and done. 

Well said!

Offline thecfarm

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Re: My first timber sale
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2008, 07:17:32 AM »
How are you getting the logs out of the woods?This is important too.Not just how the logs are coming out,but the way the logs are twitched out.There's alot to getting a log away from another tree without barking it up.Logs may need a roll on them to turn them bottom side up.Roads need to be planned out for best way to get to the wood and the least amount of damage to the land.A landing needs to be in the good place for the trucker.
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Offline Good Feller

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Re: My first timber sale
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2008, 07:19:44 PM »
Thanks Ron...  You have opened my eyes on this.  The trees that are marked right now were clearly marked with money in mind.  The oak regeneration on this site is poor.  I don't want to take them all out and then have nothing grow back.  I'll be sure to leave some as insurance/seed. 
Good Feller

Offline Hans1

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Re: My first timber sale
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2008, 12:59:41 AM »
Good feller
  I am glad to see someone from our area. I live near albia and help manage timber in that area. Would be glad to show you some of the cuts that we have been involved in.  Most of the timber that is around here is fairly low grade, with the exception of some Walnut. I am not  a forester  I pursued that for three years college then quit . Most of the managemthis ent that I am involved with is TSI - Timber stand improvement. Their is quite a bit of funding at least in monroe county . This is done under the supervision of either a State forester of a DNR . I do about 300 acres of TSI a winter. Quality White Oak are rare in this area, also making a judgement of  grade is very diffcult until the logs are down and bucked. We have a shortage of foresters in this area the few local mill owners and loggers run the show.  I have my own skidder and other equipment but only use it on my own land. We are working a harvest now 8 miles west of eddyville I have a crew that is cutting and skidding this 90% of this harvest is cull/management trees and will be sold as tie logs or pallet and the tops processed into firewood . Mature White Oak forest are in very short supply please think of the resource and future generations when marking trees
     

Offline WDH

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Re: My first timber sale
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2008, 09:14:28 AM »
When you harvest trees, you cannot assume that what is there now will be what will be there in the future.  For example, oak needs some shade to regenerate.  If you clearcut it, light seeded species that are shade intolerant will quickly take over the newly disturbed site.  The oak, even if present as acorns, will lose out to the sprinters.  You see, oak is a distance runner, not a sprinter.  You have to give the oak a chance to get started under the partial shade and them at a later time, begin to release it.

An old hardwood forester told me one time that if you are doing an oak regeneration cut, it was very important to consider what trees should be left as nurse trees for the oak regeneration.  It is not always oak that should be left.  For example, say there is a large mature sweetgum in the overstory.  If you cut it and open up a big hole, there will be sweetgum sprouts out the wazzou.  It will sprout from the roots, and now you have a little sweetgum stand developing, not an oak one.  If you leave it till the next cut, then the oak will begin to develop in the partial shade, the sweetgum roots won't sucker sprout, and you will have some oak to work with. 

The point is that you have to know the characteristics of the desirable crop trees and you have know the characteristics of the undesirable species as well.

So, go into a mature stand, say it is oak.  Cut only the biggest and the best.  It is likely that what you will have in the future will not be a high quality oak stand, but more likely sweetgum, hickory, beech, elm, etc. (of course the species will be a funtion of what part of the country you are from).  This is the stuff that has been hanging around, like thugs on the street corner, ready to move in and take over. 

That is why, like Ron S. says, you must re-mark the stand.  You cannot assume that it was done right the first time. 

You also need to do some research.  What mills (buyers) are within haul distance?  What are their specifications?  Go talk to those people.  Have them show you what they want and do not want.  Get a sense of who, what, when, and where about the market.  Meet with their timber buyers and walk the woods with them. 

You have to know the forestry and the market to do a good job on a timber sale.  Evaluate where your weaknesses are and do some research to educate yourself.  That includes spending time with experienced foresters, loggers, as well as googling on the Internet. 
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Offline Good Feller

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Re: My first timber sale
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2008, 08:31:43 AM »
Hans1,,

I didn't know anyone in the Albia area did TSI work.  I wouldn't mind getting together sometime if that would be ok.  I sent you an email.  Hope to hear from you soon!
Good Feller


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