The Forestry Forum is sponsored in part by:

KNOW WHAT?
Between February 12, 2018 and June 18, 2018, this space displayed 13 Million, 871 Thousand and 87 times.



Forestry Forum
Sponsored by:


TimberKing Sawmills



Toll Free 1-800-582-0470

LogRite Tools



Norwood Industries Inc.


Sawmill & Woodlot Magazine



Your source for Portable Sawmills, Edgers, Resaws, Sharpeners, Setters, Bandsaw Blades and Sawmill Parts

EZ Boardwalk Sawmills. More Saw For Less Money!

STIHLDealers.com sponsored by Northeast STIHL


Woodland Sawmills

Peterson Swingmills

 KASCO SharpTech WoodMaxx Blades

Turbosawmill

Sawmill Exchange

BRUTE FORCE Authorized Dealer

Woodshax Outdoor Vending Solutions

FARMA


Council Tool

Baker Products

ECHO-Bearcat



Author Topic: stand conversion  (Read 6260 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Splinter

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 88
    • Share Post
stand conversion
« on: July 11, 2008, 07:39:13 AM »
What is the best method to convert hemlock(32%), red maple(37%) & beech(11%) to red oak/white pine? percentages are basal area.
Soils are good for pine ok for oak.(southern NH)
There are some seed trees around, WP looks like good stock, oak they got most of the good stuff over the years.
Pine needs quite a bit of shade to come out straight, but competition with sprouts will be tough.
Stand is marginally commercial in size (8.6" average diameter) and mildly overstocked at this point. 132BA. 73BA is acceptable growing stock.
Advance regen is all beech/hemlock.

FWIW a neighboring tree farm used a brontosaurus as part of a white pine conversion project this year. Don't have much more detail than that.

Thanks





Offline woodtroll

  • Forester
  • *
  • Posts: 425
  • Location: Wyoming
    • Share Post
Re: stand conversion
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2008, 09:51:27 AM »
How much oak regen is present?

Offline Splinter

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 88
    • Share Post
Re: stand conversion
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2008, 10:50:27 AM »
darn close to zero.

Offline SwampDonkey

  • Board Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 35721
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Centreville, NB
  • Gender: Male
  • Large Tooth
    • Share Post
Re: stand conversion
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2008, 01:37:50 PM »
Ain't going to work. That beech will kill off any oak from shade and resilience and the hemlock will live for ever (relative term) in under the beech even if it doesn't get released. Your looking at the impossible. I suspect it was a firewood lot and the folks just took a little beech as needed and the nice oak. Easy splitting. :D  Trouble was, too much shade by just dabbing along for anything but hemlock and beech to prosper.  W. Pine will grow in smaller openings until pole sized and if it's too shaded by then, it'll meet the maker. :-X

Pre-commercial thinning pays off. :)

'If she wants to play lumberjack, she's going to have to learn to handle her end of the log.'
Dirty Harry

Online Clark

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 750
  • Location: Duluth, MN
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: stand conversion
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2008, 04:45:17 PM »
I would say that SD has given some good advice (if grim).  Tough to get anything other than tolerant species established under a tolerant species dominated canopy.

You said you have some white pine seed trees in the area.  Depending on what our abilities are you could thin around them 100-200' to try and establish seedlings.  I think you'd be best off bringing it down real low, say 40-60 BA so the canopy won't close up real fast and give the seedlings an opportunity to become poles.

That is my advice, you've got a tough row to hoe.

Clark
SAF Certified Forester

Offline Ron Scott

  • Forester
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7778
  • Age: 82
  • Location: Cadillac, MI
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: stand conversion
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2008, 08:43:35 PM »
Ditto! to what Swamp and Clark stated. Why do you want to convert to oak and white pine? You may be able to nurture some oak and white pine crop trees into the stands diversity through individual species management, but a total stand conversion would be most difficult, time consuming, and costly.
~Ron

Offline Splinter

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 88
    • Share Post
Re: stand conversion
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2008, 04:47:43 PM »
"Impossible", "grim", "tough row to hoe","ain't gonna work". you guys are a tough crowd.

 Agreed its a tough situation, thats why I am here looking for advice, and it is appreciated.

Forgot to mention this stand is 100 acres uneven aged. There is some diversity in there to work with. So the answer as usual is to grow the best of what you have. That suits me fine.

Crop tree release matches my objectives for the forest. I get to grow the best wood and keep a forest too  ;D.
Any problems with crop tree release perpetuating tolerant species?
Would it be beneficial to kill the tolerant regen in the vicinity of the crop trees at this time or is it too early to make much difference?

Clark, Sounds like a small shelterwood cut around the best seed trees. I like it. Next commercial cut I'll try it out.
 For some reason I never thought of using beech & hemlock as shelter trees, the pictures always show pine  ::)

FWIW The current management plan for this stand calls for 1/4-1 acre patch clearcuts and "free thinnings".
Probably OK technically but a lot of torn up woods for a couple bucks in the pocket. Neither of which I need right now.



Offline tonich

  • Forester
  • *
  • Posts: 366
  • Age: 48
  • Location: British Columbia
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: stand conversion
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2008, 04:41:08 AM »
Yet a good reason for the "tough crowd" to shout: "Impossible", "grim", "tough row to hoe","ain't gonna work"  ;D

Moreover, it must be pretty hard to replace beech with oaks. I could hardly imagine it.  ;)

Shelterwood cut wouldn't lead to the desired composition. Patch clearcuts would give you beech sprouts back, but with worse quality stems. The only real possibility is a forest fire.  :-X :-X :-X

Offline SwampDonkey

  • Board Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 35721
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Centreville, NB
  • Gender: Male
  • Large Tooth
    • Share Post
Re: stand conversion
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2008, 05:14:17 AM »
Don't give Toni a flame thrower.  :D :D 8)

Pre-commercial thinning pays off. :)

'If she wants to play lumberjack, she's going to have to learn to handle her end of the log.'
Dirty Harry

Offline tonich

  • Forester
  • *
  • Posts: 366
  • Age: 48
  • Location: British Columbia
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: stand conversion
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2008, 08:02:44 AM »
 :D :D 8)
Hold on, SwampDonkey! Neither intended to use that stuff, nor to encourage anyone else to do it. 

Generally, I would be a happy owner of a native mixed hemlock, red maple and beech stand. Well, that’s just me! Don’t know, when it comes to sell timber out of it, though.

Offline Dodgy Loner

  • Forester
  • *
  • Posts: 3141
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Fernandina Beach, FL
  • Gender: Male
  • It's an anagram for "dendrology" and in no way a reflection of my personality
    • Share Post
    • My Blog: A Riving Home
Re: stand conversion
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2008, 08:44:21 AM »
Here's the easiest way to convert your forest to white pine/oak: sell it and buy a white pine/oak forest ;D ;D

Ya don't want too much shade over your white pines.  Competition with similarly-sized trees is the best way to get them to come out straight.  Heavy shading from overhead will mean that more shade tolerant trees (e.g., beech and hemlock) will thrive, while the white pines will struggle along and be overtaken.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

Offline SwampDonkey

  • Board Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 35721
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Centreville, NB
  • Gender: Male
  • Large Tooth
    • Share Post
Re: stand conversion
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2008, 09:38:09 AM »
Hold on, SwampDonkey! Neither intended to use that stuff, nor to encourage anyone else to do it. 

Yeah we understand, but makes for sensational reading the day after.  ;D

Pre-commercial thinning pays off. :)

'If she wants to play lumberjack, she's going to have to learn to handle her end of the log.'
Dirty Harry

Offline Splinter

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 88
    • Share Post
Re: stand conversion
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2008, 12:12:52 PM »
Looks like there are some studies showing very good beech control with glyphosate hack n squirt and cut stump. Gotta start somewhere.  HWA will likely tear up the hemlocks, although I will be sad to see some of them go. HWA has been identified in the county.

I think what started me on this stand conversion thing is knowing the hemlocks are on borrowed time, and a beech sprout thicket gives me no joy of heart or wallet.

Offline tonich

  • Forester
  • *
  • Posts: 366
  • Age: 48
  • Location: British Columbia
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: stand conversion
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2008, 04:37:26 AM »
Yeah we understand, but makes for sensational reading the day after.  ;D

This is a place for having fun too. Only theory and learning is not enough.
Entertaining theory and learning is much better.  :D :D :)



Splinter,
You sound like a brave man. Good luck with the Roundup treatment.
Oh, and photos are always welcome here. ;D

Offline Splinter

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 88
    • Share Post
Re: stand conversion
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2008, 10:16:53 AM »
Sometimes its hard to know the line between bravery and foolishness.

I'm looking hard though, squirt bottle in hand.  :)


Offline Splinter

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 88
    • Share Post
Re: stand conversion
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2008, 02:55:10 PM »
An update for those that care.
Walked this stand with my friend/logger, and there is enough pine, oak, and other oddball higher value trees to release.
Problem with the forestry plan i paid for is the whole in/out tree thing, if you have a stand of oak poles that are just out its called hemlock. Great for industrial forestry, not so great for my forest.

Nicest surprise was a gun barrel straight and smooth 30" pine. Nice to see a teenager amongst all the babies.


Offline SwampDonkey

  • Board Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 35721
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Centreville, NB
  • Gender: Male
  • Large Tooth
    • Share Post
Re: stand conversion
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2008, 06:08:18 PM »
An update for those that care.


We all do. ;)


Quote
Problem with the forestry plan i paid for is the whole in/out tree thing, if you have a stand of oak poles that are just out its called hemlock.

I don't understand and I wonder who taught that style timber inventory. It's either an 'in' tree or it's not tallied at all. With all the different oak species down south I could understand confusing those. But, calling oak a hemlock is an interesting spin for sure.

Pre-commercial thinning pays off. :)

'If she wants to play lumberjack, she's going to have to learn to handle her end of the log.'
Dirty Harry

Offline ibseeker

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 301
  • Age: 62
  • Location: Imperial Beach, CA now; Maryville, East TN soon
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: stand conversion
« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2008, 08:03:06 PM »
Looks like there are some studies showing very good beech control with glyphosate hack n squirt and cut stump. Gotta start somewhere.  HWA will likely tear up the hemlocks, although I will be sad to see some of them go. HWA has been identified in the county.


Splinter, what studies are you referring to? I'm going to be battling a beech problem after some recent logging and this thread has me wondering what I'm facing. I whacked the heck out of the beech but without hack and squirt, I'm thinking it'll all come back.
Chuck
worn out poulan, Stihl 250SC, old machete and a bag of clues with a hole in the bottom

Offline SwampDonkey

  • Board Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 35721
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Centreville, NB
  • Gender: Male
  • Large Tooth
    • Share Post
Re: stand conversion
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2008, 04:24:59 AM »
If you have any intention of spacing the second growth, as in pre-commercial thinning,  make sure to knock down any unhealthy beech pole wood. That stuff will inhibit your work and inhibit regeneration of other species. What I have found over the years is landowners leave that stuff behind and expect it to grow into a healthy tree. What happens is our diseased pole wood sized beech turns into 'apple trees', short and wide branching. I see some people end up cutting all the nice healthy regen and leaving that stuff as crop trees because it is more advanced and hard to cut down to the ground. I refuse to space sites with that all through the new regen.

Pre-commercial thinning pays off. :)

'If she wants to play lumberjack, she's going to have to learn to handle her end of the log.'
Dirty Harry

Offline Splinter

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 88
    • Share Post
Re: stand conversion
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2008, 07:51:41 AM »
SD,
No they were not calling a hemlock an oak, that was a little tongue in cheek, expressing some frustration with my ex-forester. There is enough oak/pine in the stand to make crop release worthwhile. I think his cruise results would be different after 20 years of crop tree release.

Thanks for the input, beech control will be part of any harvest and release on the property.

ibseeker,
here are a couple beech control studies.
http://www.dnr.cornell.edu/ext/info/pubs/misc/ne_2006_kochenderfer_001.pdf
http://nrs.fs.fed.us/pubs/jrnl/2001/ne_2001_kochenderfer_001.pdf




Share via delicious Share via digg Share via facebook Share via linkedin Share via pinterest Share via reddit Share via stumble Share via tumblr Share via twitter

xx
Conversion kit

Started by j rock on Sawmills and Milling

7 Replies
1182 Views
Last post February 04, 2012, 07:37:00 AM
by bandmiller2
xx
613 to 618 conversion

Started by Dan_F on Sawmills and Milling

7 Replies
1824 Views
Last post December 27, 2008, 03:26:41 PM
by Dan_F
xx
Hot Tub Conversion?

Started by bskaggs32 on Firewood and Wood Heating

12 Replies
8948 Views
Last post November 21, 2011, 05:35:28 PM
by Ironwood
xx
Conversion ???????????/

Started by Fla._Deadheader on General Board

111 Replies
13580 Views
Last post December 06, 2003, 06:36:14 PM
by Fla._Deadheader
 


Powered by EzPortal