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Author Topic: Replacing 038 mag with 441 or 460?  (Read 7386 times)

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Offline Mike PA

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Replacing 038 mag with 441 or 460?
« on: July 15, 2008, 03:33:29 PM »
I am new to this forum, but it seems as though people are fairly friendly, so I am hoping for a bit of advice.

I cut for firewood to heat my house, but I cut more than the average guy who cuts firewood (I also clear land/ roads on a limited basis).    I have been very happy with the 038 mag, but it appears to be time to replace it.  I am going to stick with Stihl, as I am happy with the performance and I have a good local dealer/ shop and the 038 has been a great saw.  I am considering three saws, the 361, 441, and 460.  I am not a logger, but I do cut some large trees (24"-36"), mostly oak, hickory, and maple.  I think the 361, while a great saw by all accounts, is smaller than I want (there have been times when the 038 mag would be slow on some big wood), so mostly I am thinking the 441 and 460.  What does everyone think?  Which is better?  Either should have enough power (I have never needed more than a 20" bar).  Any help would be appreciated.

Offline Cut4fun

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Re: Replacing 038 mag with 441 or 460?
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2008, 06:10:32 PM »
If you haven't noticed yet there has  been alot of barely used 441's on the market lately. I would skip it and go straight to the 460 if it has to be a stihl in the cc size.
A friend of mine bought a 441 to replace a 044, I ran it some and was unimpressed. He and his dad ran it on the tree farm for a few months as a stock saw and as a woods ported saw with another cylinder and piston. They later put the stock set up back on and sold it. Neither one was very happy with the power of it and the people that go on about how much power the 441 has IMO hasn't ran a good saw or just trying to tell themselves they didn't waste close to $800 on a inferior saw  :D. JMO.

Offline Reddog

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Re: Replacing 038 mag with 441 or 460?
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2008, 09:19:53 PM »
Mike,
First Welcome.
Here is a link to my comments in another thread about the 441.
In a nut shell I like it.

Wally

http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,29563.msg425680.html#msg425680

Offline Al_Smith

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Re: Replacing 038 mag with 441 or 460?
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2008, 02:50:22 AM »
Replacing an 038 Mag is big shoes to fill .Most likely one of the better firewood size saws Stihl ever made .

You can tweek that old duffer and it will hang right in there with an 80 cc stock saw .There are still plenty of parts available for those things .Fact is I worked on two within in the last two days .One was mine another for a customer .Both cut great but mine has had a tad bit of enhancement . ;)

Most likely a 460 would be the ticket if you want some grunt .After that ,refurbish the 38 Mag,you won't regret it ,money well spent .

Offline Maineloggerkid

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Re: Replacing 038 mag with 441 or 460?
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2008, 05:41:28 AM »
I ran a 441 once, and it seemed that it was very long. IT felt like my arms were 3 feet apart. Power wise, my 372 will keep right up or beat it. Im buying a Stihl 460 sometime in the next 2 weeks, so I will report on it.
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Offline Mike PA

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Re: Replacing 038 mag with 441 or 460?
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2008, 07:23:38 AM »
Thanks everyone.  My inclination has been the 460, but a lot of reviews I have read are pretty high on the 441, which was making me reconsider. 

Wally - I appreciate your comments.  I have to think that, for me, the 441 would have enough power.  The improved AV would nice. 


Al - I am really considering tearing the 038 apart and rebuilding it.  I have not identified the problem yet. There is scoring in the cylinder but it has been there for a while, so I think the problem I am having now is because air is leaking in elsewhere or a combination problems.  I did check the compression, it gets up to 122 psi after 8-10 pulls.  Hopefully I'll have some time tonight to look at it some more.

Offline Al_Smith

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Re: Replacing 038 mag with 441 or 460?
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2008, 07:49:14 PM »
 You most likely can do a light hone and a rering and get most of the comp back .Rebuild the Bing carb and replace the clutch side seal while you are at it . These things are pretty tough saws .

One that I worked on a few days ago at one time had a grenaded piston ,didn't hurt the cylinder a bit . I rebuilt it several years ago,new piston ,bearings , seals etc . It did blow a seal after a few years for some unknown reason but that thing has seen over 15 years of service in use for a tree service compnay .Much more severe than most people would subject it to .They actually prefer this old saw to a more modern Ms 440 .

It leaks a little lube oil but I suppose I might too if I'd have been ran hard and put away wet as many times  as that thing has  been . :D

Offline Mad Professor

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Re: Replacing 038 mag with 441 or 460?
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2008, 09:55:26 AM »
I'd rebuild the 038.  Might just need rings and seals/impulse and fuel lines/carb rebuild.  If you need a cyl look on ebay for a good OEM used or new.  Tecomec also makes a quality replacement cyl assy at ca. 1/2 price of OEM.

I've recently rebuilt two 038. I ebayed a new OEM cyl assy for $180 and a tecomec for $100.  Add in $14 for a gasket/seal kit and another ca. $30 for carb kit and hoses.  Both saws runs as good/better than new now (a little muffler/port work).

Don't forget a new air filter (ca. $25) if you put the $ into a rebuild. 

Offline Mike PA

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Re: Replacing 038 mag with 441 or 460?
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2008, 08:59:36 AM »
I am rebuilding it.  Have the parts on order, should come in today.  The cylinder looked ok, just did a little honing.  I am getting crank seals, gaskets, rings, and impulse line.  After that is done, I'll see how (if?) it runs, and will look at the carb rebuild then.  I expected to find more wrong with it when I opened it up, so I am hopeful that this will take care of it and relatively cheaply.

I don't know anything about porting the muffler, so I won't be doing that.  I am just hoping to get it back into operating condition.  I am looking forward to getting the parts and putting it all back together.  For a saw that is over 20 years old, it has been very good.  This is the first time I've had to do any real work to it, except it got run over and the handle broke.

I have my fingers crossed that it will run again, as I am not looking forward to the cost of a new saw, even though I do want one.

Offline Good Feller

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Re: Replacing 038 mag with 441 or 460?
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2008, 09:48:47 AM »
Last year when I started looking for a bigger saw I went through the same dilemma between the 441 and the 460.  I'm glad I went with the 460 (I probably should have got the 660). 
When you are talking about buying a $750 dollar saw why not just spend another $100 or so and go first class?  PLUS,,, the 441 weighs just as much if not more than the 460 and has less power!  What's the point in getting the 441????  The dealer tried telling me how the 441 runs cleaner and blah blah blah....  Yeah whatever.  I think the 441 is a gimmick. 
I wouldn't want to cut any 24-36" trees with anything smaller than a 460 personally.  With the 460 you'll always have the option of putting on a longer bar and the saw should pull it easier than what the 441 would.    Go big or go home! (that was my wife's advice when I was saw shopping) LOL
Good Feller

Offline Al_Smith

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Re: Replacing 038 mag with 441 or 460?
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2008, 07:48:01 PM »
.

I don't know anything about porting the muffler, so I won't be doing that.  I am just hoping to get it back into operating condition.  
I have my fingers crossed that it will run again, as I am not looking forward to the cost of a new saw, even though I do want one.
You won't have any problems.If you do speak up we all had to learn at some time or another . ;)

Offline Old_Hickory

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Re: Replacing 038 mag with 441 or 460?
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2008, 03:57:36 PM »
i had a 441 and sold it,and got 372 xp  the 372 willoutcut it hands down plus is lighter
gotta love those XP saws

Offline liketocut

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Re: Replacing 038 mag with 441 or 460?
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2008, 12:50:45 PM »
One thing about the 460, for about $35 you can buy a 440 dual port
muffler cover from Stihl. Have read it will gain about 10% HP.
I have the Stihl DP cover's on 460, 440, 066 and 660.
After installing DP cover you will need to richen carb setting's or
saw will run to lean.

Offline Al_Smith

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Re: Replacing 038 mag with 441 or 460?
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2008, 01:56:35 PM »
 --or for twenty minutes of work you can make your own dual port . ;)

Offline liketocut

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Re: Replacing 038 mag with 441 or 460?
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2008, 02:45:16 PM »
--or for twenty minutes of work you can make your own dual port . ;)

Yup.............That's what I done to MS260, MS361 and 064 ;D

Offline isawlogs

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Re: Replacing 038 mag with 441 or 460?
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2008, 07:38:58 PM »

 Be nice if you would put a step by step process of making of dual port .
 I couple of pikchures would be apreciated too  :)
A man does not always grow wise as he grows old , but he always grows old as he grows wise .

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Offline zackman1801

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Re: Replacing 038 mag with 441 or 460?
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2008, 08:54:12 PM »
after really looking over an MS441 ( i didnt run it though) i can safely say there is no reason i would ever buy one. (unless it was incredibly cheap) its just simply, too big, too heavy, and underpowered for its size. my Ms460 is smaller and lighter, probably because of a shorter bar, but still why buy a heavier bigger saw that has less power, when you can get a far superior saw like the 460.  i just dont understand what stihl was thinking when they made the 441, its a shame really.
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Offline Cut4fun

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Re: Replacing 038 mag with 441 or 460?
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2008, 09:02:40 PM »

 Be nice if you would put a step by step process of making of dual port .
 I couple of pikchures would be apreciated too  :)

Every muffler out there seems to have a step by step muffler mod already posted elsewhere. Just use the yahoo or google search function for the saw you want and muffler mod or just muffler mod.

Offline Maineloggerkid

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Re: Replacing 038 mag with 441 or 460?
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2008, 05:42:11 AM »
The 441 and 460 actually have the same dry weight, but the 460 has more power.
JD 540D cable skidder, and 2 huskies- just right.   

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Offline Al_Smith

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Re: Replacing 038 mag with 441 or 460?
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2008, 11:00:24 AM »

 Be nice if you would put a step by step process of making of dual port .
 I couple of pikchures would be apreciated too  :)
There isn't much to it really . There must be a zillion articles about same on the net .

As far as posting pictures ,I'm not smart enough to do so on this site ,Lord knows I've tried though . Fact is at the moment I've got a little glitch in my danged 'puter and can't post them any where for some reason or another . >:(

Offline Cut4fun

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Re: Replacing 038 mag with 441 or 460?
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2008, 01:48:46 PM »


As far as posting pictures ,I'm not smart enough to do so on this site ,Lord knows I've tried though . [/quote]

Exactly why I dont post pics or take the time to do the miniature size resizing this site requires, its a real pita imho to have to host them here first.
If someone wants a pic I usually tell them to look at it elsewhere where it is posted alot easier.

Offline Gary Davis

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Re: Replacing 038 mag with 441 or 460?
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2018, 09:11:21 PM »
the 038 mag is the same cu in as the 440

Offline Al_Smith

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Re: Replacing 038 mag with 441 or 460?
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2018, 04:09:28 AM »
Not exactly. The 038 Mag is 52 by 34 mm for 72.2 cc . The 044/440 is 50 by 36 mm for 70.7 cc 

Offline Gary Davis

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Re: Replacing 038 mag with 441 or 460?
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2018, 09:42:12 PM »
that's nice to know I have my 038 mag for almost 20 years and I am very happy with it any thing over 24 in in dia and I pull out the 460 but some of the sthl dealers would try and sell the 440 as an upgrade and bigger saw I got mine used and my understanding that the previous owner wanted some thing bigger and traded it for a 440 

Offline beauj5

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Re: Replacing 038 mag with 441 or 460?
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2018, 10:53:37 PM »
I have an 044, and it is indeed a fantastic, legendary saw. No experience with the 441,  I do have a lot of hours with the 460, and considering the $; weight and power, Id buy a 460.  That has replaced the 044/440 here in the PNW as the single go to saw.  In fact, you rarely see any 441 anywhere. Its either 362 or 461.  Id be surprised if Stihl continued the 441 line much longer. 
When the road forked, I went straight.

T540xp, 562xp, 034 super mag, 044, 460, 576, 056 super mag, ms460, 066, ms880, 090.

Offline teakwood

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Re: Replacing 038 mag with 441 or 460?
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2018, 08:47:48 AM »
Id be surprised if Stihl continued the 441 line much longer. 


I also don't think they will, the new MS462 at 72.2cc replaces the 461 (76.5cc) and the 441 (70.7cc)
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Offline HolmenTree

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Re: Replacing 038 mag with 441 or 460?
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2018, 09:18:22 AM »
Id be surprised if Stihl continued the 441 line much longer.


I also don't think they will, the new MS462 at 72.2cc replaces the 461 (76.5cc) and the 441 (70.7cc)
The MS462 has the same 72.2cc as the 038Mag/MS382.
I also notice the MS382 has a side chain tensioner. 
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Offline teakwood

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Re: Replacing 038 mag with 441 or 460?
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2018, 10:09:57 PM »
Can you get the 382 in US/Canada?

Your right with that statement Holmen, but the 382 is far inferior quality, made in Brasil.  Cheap plastikparts, overall cheap appearance, IMO 
National Stihl Timbersports Champion Costa Rica 2018

Offline HolmenTree

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Re: Replacing 038 mag with 441 or 460?
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2018, 10:35:09 PM »
Can you get the 382 in US/Canada?

Your right with that statement Holmen, but the 382 is far inferior quality, made in Brasil.  Cheap plastikparts, overall cheap appearance, IMO
No can't get the 382 here. But I can say one thing I heard from some fellow Australians who do own 382s and they swear by them.
Can't get a much better referral than that.
Joe Indie knows them well too, he says they share a lot of the MS460 parts.
maybe Joe can chime in.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Offline joe_indi

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Re: Replacing 038 mag with 441 or 460?
« Reply #29 on: April 18, 2018, 07:32:30 AM »
To say MS382 is an inferior saw just because it is made in Brazil would not be correct.
They bear only a passing resemblance to a 038/380/381

Everything is new. The oil pump, the clutch (yes like Holmen said, they are closer to the 460 parts), the Cylinder, the crankshaft, the tank housing........
Unlike the 462 (with several parts interchangeable with the 460) the 382 has very few parts interchangeable with the 038/380/381. Because it is a new and lighter saw and fits quite neatly into a niche between the 362 and 460/462. Maybe rubbing shoulders with the 440/441 on the descending side. Though it has a metal flywheel the acceleration  is superb. Though the crank is lighter and has a 6202 bearing instead of a 6203 on the clutch side, the torque is good, more in line with the old line of 046, yes, the 382's power delivery reminds me of the old 046.
They still have the 52mm pistons but with a different positioning for the rings.
We in India get the 'naturally aspirated' version while as more refined user countries will get it the exhaust stratified version ( a la MS 461)

And the price? it is way below that of the 460/461, more bang for the buck (more saw dust for the buck?)

Offline HolmenTree

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Re: Replacing 038 mag with 441 or 460?
« Reply #30 on: April 18, 2018, 08:16:07 AM »
Thanks Joe, that was superbly written.
And I  may have to buy one from you in the near future  :)
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Offline knuckledragger

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Re: Replacing 038 mag with 441 or 460?
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2018, 09:55:16 AM »
First I've heard of a 382. Guess maybe people who are close to me are correct when they say I'm "outta touch". That said, I've recently had opportunity to run and service the 460 and the 461. Outstanding saws they both are. If this 382 matches up them it must be a dandy. My uncle bought my grandpa a038mag for Christmas in '92 maybe '93. It was to much saw for him really but he tried using it anyway. The next year his health deteriorated he never got to use the saw again. My grandma gave the saw to me and I used it here and there over 4or 5 yrs then sold the saw. My 044 would out cut that particular saw, in fact. Don't know why I threw that in there, guess because it's just an exceptional saw. 460/461 can't go wrong with either.

Offline teakwood

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Re: Replacing 038 mag with 441 or 460?
« Reply #32 on: April 22, 2018, 11:21:23 AM »
The 382 is nowhere near the 460/461
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Offline teakwood

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Re: Replacing 038 mag with 441 or 460?
« Reply #33 on: April 22, 2018, 11:24:47 AM »
A big teak company here has bought around 15 new 382 and they work out good. will see how they hold up with time. they really use/abuse the saws. For the price (900$ here) they're surely a good option, but can't be compared with a high tech german saw like the 461
National Stihl Timbersports Champion Costa Rica 2018


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