iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Opportunity? or coincidence...

Started by Engineer, October 16, 2008, 04:01:53 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Engineer

I have had my manual, 1985 vintage LT30 parked at the end of my driveway for a few months now, trying to saw up a pile of pine logs for framing lumber.  Due to the sheer physical requirements of handling 20-30" diameter green pine logs on a manual mill, my output has only been averaging 125-150 bf per hour.  That includes rolling, dogging and loading/unloading logs and lumber as well as sawing time.  I have a small JD tractor which is entirely incapable of picking up much more than 600 lb, and a couple of wood handled peaveys.  That's my whole operation.

Two weeks ago a contractor friend of mine spotted my mill and lamented that he'd been trying to have boards sawn for siding on his pole barn and the sawyer he normally used had broken his arm and was unable to use his mill (I think the guy has an LT-40 Super).  He wanted to know if I'd saw for him.  Then a couple stopped by last week and wanted some walnut logs sawn for them, they had been referred to me by a tree service guy who I barely know.  Then yesterday, a guy who lives a few miles away stopped by and said he had a "few poplar logs" about 18-20" diameter that he wanted sawed into 1/2" thick material for siding for his barn.

I don't know what to think here.  Part of me wants to say that this is an opportunity not to be missed, that I could make some money sawing for others on weekends.  Another part says I'm nuts because custom sawing can't reasonably be done with minimal equipment on a manual mill.  Still another says buy a new or good used mill and make a business of it.  And the little bit of conscience that argues for family peace and harmony says I shouldn't saw anything for anybody because I have enough stuff to do around the house already.  :( ::)

All these "jobs" are relatively minor.  The walnut could be slabbed in a couple hours at most.  The poplar might take a day.  The pine siding could be a weekend or less, especially since the contractor has a skid steer with forks and a big track-hoe with a thumb for loading logs.  All of them are willing to tail and stack.  All are willing to pay a fair rate (which I have been told is around $45 an hour in these parts, but that's for a fully hydraulic mill with support machinery).  Except for the guy with the broken arm, there's no other portable mills that I know of in this area, and he apparently has a full time job and saws on the side.

What would YOU do, in my case? 

schakey

When opportunity knocks open the door and go for it.This could tell you if this what you want to do
on a part-time or full time basis. smiley_angel02_wings smiley_angel02_wings smiley_angel02_wings
Think-Dream-Plan-Do

york

Yes,move your mill to a better spot and go for it-you know you are.

Bert
Albert

shinnlinger

I am in a  similar boat as you set up wise....manual mill and small tractor and not much else.

I have done some milling for friends from time to time, but if I were to spend much time NOT working on my house the wife would string me up, unless I was making some serious bling.  Actually I havent charged MONEY for anything I have done to date...more favors and that has worked well for me.

So what would I do?  Probably walk away from big jobs but make sure you are charging enough $ to make it worth your while for what you do tackle.  If word spreads that you are cheap, you will get way to much work.  If you charge too much they might not come to you which is kinda how you want it right?

I suppose to better answer your question I would have to ask what are your ambitions/situation in life.  Yound kids in sports and you might not have the weekend time you think you do.

On the other hand if you are striving to suck every possible $ out of every inch of daylight you might be onto something.  

If you do go bigtime, I suspect that there wil be some great buys on used equipment for some time to come.
Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

thecfarm

I would charge them the $45 or more.Tell them you can not saw as fast as a hyd mill.Make sure they understand that it will take longer,but not ALOT longer.I have people tell me they know someone that can saw a lot more lumber than my manual mill.Yes,they can,but mine mill cost a lot less than theirs. Everything is slow because of all of the manual labor.I would keep it by the hour as you said.Hard to make money by the board foot with a manual mill.If they want to help,they can save a few dollars by tailing for you.See where all this brings you in a couple years.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

SamB

I agree with posts 3&4, having a sawmill for personal use seems to create a new identity. Do you want to be an occasional sawyer or pro sawyer? Buying a new mill may determine the answer. Do you use your tractor alot? May want to consider a bigger tractor and stay with the manual mill. You could still do some custom sawing, have a tractor that could handle bigger logs and help maintain the homestead. Guess it just depends where you want to take it. :)

woodmills1

I would say take every job you can till you lose money then charge more.
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

Chuck White

I learned how to run a WM on my F.I.L.'s LT40G18 Manual.
I really enjoyed running it.
Then I/We decided to get our own mill.  So we went to Wood-Mizer and let them know that we were looking for a "good used" LT40 Hydraulic.  A month or so later I got a phone call from a guy about 150 miles away and he said he had what he thought I was looking for.
I went and looked at it and saw it run, and it followed me home.  The hour meter read 487 hours.
The price was a little over half of what a new one listed for.
Since May, we've milled just over 65,000 bf.

Keep you eyes open and you could find a good used Hyd. at a big savings.
If you want a Wood-Mizer, let your nearest WM dealer know what you're looking for and they will help you find a deal.
Of course, other sawmill manufacturers would work pretty-much the same way.
Good luck.
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

Captain

That's how it begins...then the need for speed and more efficient log moving takes over.  I love being in the sawmill business with a manual mill (swingmill of course) It keeps me healthy, happy, off the ski slope and golf course, and actually puts money in my pocket.

Captain

cptbob06

I also have a old lt30 manual mill. Several times a year I am asked to cut for other people and they actually have a pile of logs ready and waiting to be cut. I also get a few "I am going to have some logs for you to cut" but they never call back. The next time you see that person they still say they are going to call soon. I don't go chasing jobs and I only do a couple a year to put a few extra dollars in my pocket and I do enjoy sawing. You have to weigh the extra money versus the loss of your time and how hard you have to work with a manual mill.

BBTom

By all means, do the jobs for the money.  You gain experience and some coin.

I run a 40 super and get $60/hr, but that works out to less than $0.30/bdft when the customer has things laid out right. 

Do not put yourself in debt until you have three months of full time work lined up. 

2001 LT40HDD42RA with lubemizer, debarker, laser, accuset. Retired, but building a new shop and home in Missouri.

bandmiller2

Engineer,position you mill on a side hill so logs can be rolled onto a log brow and the mill without lifting.Build yourself a simple hyd. log turner and clamp[look at a woodmizer clamp that runs on two planes in out and up and down.That device will turn your logs and clamp. If the customer helps you they will understand whats involved and usally not hassle over the price.If it works out good and you like it keep going ,if not personal mill.Tip take the wife out to dinner tell her the mill is buying.Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Dan_Shade

Here's my take and kind of a been there/done that thing...

my manual was a hudson Oscar 28 with an 8 HP engine on it.  I moved it once off of my site, and it was a never ending job.  The LT30's are much better suited to saw than the Hud-son, but regardless, manual mills are a lot of work, and it's aggrivating when it's offsite.

I upgraded to an LT40HDG25, and started a weekend warrior business.  It can be taxing, sometimes I joke that I go back to work for a break on Monday.  There have also been times where I had to take vacation days in order to get a job completed.

Also, it depends on your family time, it can become non-existant on the weekends, unless you bring the kids along to help with the job.

I prefer sawing by the board foot, what I've been doing for the past 6 months or so is going out, scaling the job before I get there, and giving an estimate based upon mileage and the sawing fee based on international scale.

At the end of the day, I am very thankful that I bought the hydraulic model, it's "sort of slowly paying for itself".   I really don't see how you can effectively custom saw on someone else's site without hydraulics...  I'm at the point where I want a super because of the number of "large" jobs that I get.
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

Robert Long

don't forget the truck, you will need a truck to get around and that costs money to run and maintain, then try to get insurance on all that, up here the truck can be insured but not the mill so I have to get insurance from another company.   Your problem will be as I see it the off site cutting and a need to increase the milling price to do this.  As for cutting at your site, you will need to load and unload logs and that tractor is not good for that job and you will need enough room to "get it done" for the customer or they will complain of the conditions but not to you, if you know what I mean.

A good think is to look at resale of wood and value added wood or projects to help bring along you dream to upgrade eg.  build the odd garden shed with the extra wood you hold onto from custom cutting and put it at the road to sell, it will go fast!

Good luck with it!
Robert

Engineer

Well,  I just got a call from the folks with the walnut.  They don't live in the area and are only going to be here one more weekend before they shut their summer house up for the winter.  I agreed to saw up his logs this Saturday, he's going to deliver the logs, help at the mill, and take his lumber home.   I'm either going to charge him $40 an hour or saw shares, I get 50% of the wood.  His choice.  It also looks like I'll get a few thousand $$ worth of engineering and surveying work out of him over the winter, but I won't let that stand in the way of me making a buck or two on a Saturday.  Maybe take the wife and kids to dinner.  The way my kids eat, I'll have to put in at least a four-hour-day...  :D

I was talking to my wife about economic stuff this morning, she works for a grocery chain that carries only their own store brands and is very popular with low-income folks.  My business is not really something critical like a doctor or even a lawyer, so I expect a downturn in my business over the winter and maybe longer.  She suggested that maybe I should save my pennies and buy that hydraulic mill I seem to be drooling about all the time, and do something I love rather than just "have a job".  Her company pays their management more than I make as a licensed engineer with 20 years on the job. :o  So this thread may be the start of something completely different...

ely

good luck on that venture, sounds like you have it all in your corner. 8)

bull

You can cut a hell of alot of wood on an LT 15....... I had an lt 15 and loved it, I have an LT 40 supper hydralic, accusett the works... and my out put at the end of the days isn't much better than with the LT 15.... 1000 BFD a day either machine. stacked stickered and a clean yard....
with the LT 15 I had No break downs or Electrical problems, and not where near the maintainance.

Build a decent log deck to make it easier to roll logs onto your mill and you move a lot faster.
I had a couple 2x10x20's anchored into cement (sona tubes) what a difference, also a 12 x 30 mill shed with a cement floor, everything was under cover and it was great !! 
Then I got smart bought the lt 40 *( didn't fit in the shed)*, more maintainance etce etc..
You need a bigger tractor and that would be where I would start before getting another mill The LT 15 is what you need unless your planning on cutting over 100,000 BFD a year !!!
Been there and done it !! 
I don't dislike the LT 40 just didn't need to spend the money and hate extra matainance...
I have many answers if you have questions!!

DanG

See what happens when you get a little sloppy and leave a mill, logs, lumber, and slabs in the front yard? 8) 8)

Bull is probably right, but I'm gonna disagree with him anyway.  Get the hydraulics.  Your back will last longer. ;)
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

bull

definelty the hydralics save the back, but the $30,000 hurts coming out of the wallet !!! And the time it takes seaching for that hidden coffee can with the money' he'll be able to cut a hell of alot of wood on the LT 15

Cedarman

A boom pole with a chain and log tongs can lift a rather big log, even for a tractor like an 8N Ford.  Move chain close to middle of boom pole.  25 years ago when I was using my LT30 (before there was any such hydraulic mill) we could cut 1500 feet a day.  Customer off beared some usually.  Have a log deck and get logs loaded.  Have good chainsaw to cut notches in big log and a good axe to chop off a line if log is dirty.  2 good cant hooks to turn log.  Lots of work, but with good organization you can make a nice stack of lumber.

Great opportunity to do a few jobs and see how they turn out.  Keep good records of how long you work, mistakes, how much lumber sawn etc.  Also talk to customer and see how they feel about the job, quality wise and cost wise.  Then sit back and see how it went.

Then think about that hydraulic mill. 
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

Chuck White

Check some of the ad's here on Forestry Forum.  Even old ad's might still be valid.

Check the Wood-Mizer web site for a used hydraulic mill.

I got mine from an individual about 150 miles away and paid a little over half price of a new one.
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

Engineer

Well, today's experience with the walnut was interesting, to say the least.  Turns out, although I guess I knew it in advance, that a local arborist cut the walnut down in exchange for the tree.  So it was his tree, his wood, and he showed up in order to tell me how he wanted it sawed.  No problem - I know the guy, he's a bit eccentric but a good man. 

So a truck and trailer showed up at 9 am with three logs on it and four pieces of firewood.  The firewood, I call it that, was four 6-8" diameter limbs that they thought I might be able to saw as well.  I was able to move all the logs with my little tractor.  They had two 8-footers, one 12-footer with a big sweep and branch stubs that we turned into a straight 8-footer and a bunch of really cool looking 4' slabs, look like the end of a church pew.  The largest log was 26" dia., the smallest was 17".  I turned everything into 6/4 bookmatch flitches that the guy was going to sticker and stack in log form.  Hit one nail, dulled but not wrecked the blade, and one small piece of lead buckshot. 

If it was almost any other common species of wood, it would all have been in the firewood pile, but we got some really nice slabs (about 22-23 slabs) and some 10/4 QS stock that would make a really nice batch of gunstocks.  The "firewood" I told the guy to leave it, I'm going to experiment with an end-clamping log cradle that I can saw short and skinny pieces with.  The only part of the day that really sucked was that the wind was in my face all day, I think I ate about two or three ounces of walnut dust...  food6  ::)

So I burned up two gallons of gas, about five hours of which a lot was just discussing sawing patterns, and two resharps.  Lemme tell you, I did NOT think I was going to make a full width pass through 24" walnut log with that little 14-hp Kohler engine, but it worked.  A bit wavy when the blades got dull, but a sharp blade...  yeah.  All in all, the tree guy was very happy, I asked for $150 and my choice of two bookmatched slabs and two "church pew" slabs so I can build a through-tenon bench for my entry hall.  He paid, gladly, and I get to treat the family to dinner out.   ;D  That's the kind of job I like.

davemartin88

Engineer, thanks for the update on the walnut job- I'm hoping to be in the same kind of situation. I recently retired and have an LT15 and a BobCat with a grapple that I've used to saw logs for myself, mostly stuff that has come down on it's own on my property or one of the neighbors. I've started passing the word to a few folks that I'd be interested in doing some small jobs at an hourly rate, hoping to support my woodworking habit.

$150 and a couple of slabs of walnut sound like a good Saturday to me! Haven't figured out or decided what to charge per hour yet but guess I'll have to figure it out quickly if someone calls me!

Good luck to you.

DanG

Quote from: davemartin88 on October 26, 2008, 04:43:41 PM
$150 and a couple of slabs of walnut sound like a good Saturday to me!

That sounds like a great day to me, too! 8)  I just can't figure out why you would turn up your nose at 17-26 inch logs of any species.  They ain't too big if you got a proper Logrite cant hook. ::)
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Brucer

Quote from: Engineer on October 16, 2008, 04:01:53 PM
What would YOU do, in my case? 

What I DID in your case was write up a business plan, apply for a $20k loan, and put a refundable $1k deposit on an LT40HD28. The phone started ringing the day after I sent in the deposit -- Wood-Mizer sent folks to me because they couldn't afford a new manual mill (but really, really wanted one). Got the loan approved on a Thursday, sold the old mill the following Saturday, delivered it and fetched the new one the following Tuesday.

I went really basic -- no extras except the debarker, and I resisted the chance to get a new diesel WM. After the money started to come in, I added an auto-clutch, and then later a dragback system and a couple of the new adjustable outriggers.

I paid the 5 year loan off in 20 months -- exactly 1/3 of its term.

I'm set up on my main customer's site and I only move the mill 3 or 4 times a year. If I was going on the road steady, I'd buy a full set of the new fine-adjust outriggers. They really make for a fast setup.

As other folks have said, material handling is the real secret of productivity. I've made a couple of portable off-loading systems that will handle big timbers, and that's had an enormous effect on my output.

It's not easy work, and I make a darn sight less than I did as an engineer. Because I'm small and do specialized work, there's still a demand for my services. Bigger competitors have gone out of business because they weren't getting the volume they needed to pay for their operations. There's a lot of uncertainty, too. Will my main customer go broke? Will I be able to get enough logs to keep me going? Will my 1980 truck last another season? (oops, no, it didn't). But because I'm small and not tied to one location, there are opportunities as well.

The one thing that's made this work for me is Barb's support and encouragement. Without that I'd never have pulled this off.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

Thank You Sponsors!