Beginner's Mind...

swtfsh · January 10, 2009, 02:40:39 PM

Hi, all,
I'm new to the forum; it's great...appreciate all the expert advice.
I'm a recent homeowner/landowner(modest lil' 10 acres in upstate NY); We've got a woodstove inside and one out in the garage(the band rehearsal studio!).
So, I've been doing some cutting, splitting, burning. Got lots of questions, many have already been answered on this site (thanks!), but a few others:

1) advantages/disadvantages of using trees (for firewood)that are already on the ground --dead, knocked-down, etc.--there's quite a good many! Is there a general rule (if it's been down for too long, decaying, etc.)? Generally, if it's in good shape, not rotting, I use it. Some seems like it's all ready to burn....quite dried.

2) feedback on those manual, two-handled, hydrulic log splitters?
Currently, I use mauls, and one of these Oregon devices with wedge that slides on rail and one whacks it with a sledge hammer....(works well); rented a gas-powered splitter (very nice!)

3) I usually split it as I cut it. Is it true that cold wood (winter) splits better? Nothing warms than some cutting and splitting on a cold, snowing, winter's day!

well, I'd appreciate any and all feedback, comments, advice to this novice. Thanks!

Maineloggerkid · January 10, 2009, 02:52:56 PM

Welcome to the forums, and good luck with you property! I think I speak for all of use when I say that I look forward to the upcoming discussions.

1. Dead,fallen trees- If they haven't been on the ground too long they make good firewood. If mthey sit too long they get punky and actually suck in moisture. If you want real dry firewood quick, look for standing dead trees. Use extreme caution when cutting dead trees, and get someone to help. ( If for no other reason but saftey) Many a faller have been killed/ injured by these. You can gamble all your life, but it is always the last one that gets you ;)

2. Splitters- I can't help there because I'm not sure what you mean. I will say that if you plan on heating with wood for a long time, get a gas splitter. It is a god send. We use one, and I break the maul out every now and then.

3. Winter splitting- Yes, it is very true. The sap in the trees freezes up, and then the fibers become much more brittle, and then the wood just seems to crack apart. The same reason why you leave a little thicker hinge when cutting a tree in the winter.

Hope I help a little, and again- Welcome to the forums!

cheyenne · January 10, 2009, 08:10:02 PM

Where upstate.....Cheyenne

jdtuttle · January 11, 2009, 08:22:15 AM

Welcome to the forum. I too live in upstate NY near Ithaca. If you want some free firewood come over to my place & i'll load you up with some slab wood. Free!
jim

breederman · January 11, 2009, 08:31:49 AM

Welcome! where are you at? there are several of us up staters around here.

ahlkey · January 11, 2009, 02:08:52 PM

In addition to what has already been mentioned try to build clutter when splitting with a maul. It is amazing how effective you can be if you arrange your blocks in a way that they are supported by each other in order to keep them upright. I have also welded a hook to the end of my maul so I can minimize having to bend over. I do enjoy the workout of splitting wood as you are doing something productive rather than just working out at the gym. I also have a PTO hydraulic splitter that I use whenever I need to do more than a few hours of splitting. In that case, I have bulit a nice platform so everything is at the same level. Having a 4-wedge attachment is money well spent.

Another thing to consider is a new stove. Make sure your stove has over 70% efficiency. It is surprising how many old stoves out there are in the 20-30% range which in the end means you have to burn twice as much wood, which just doubles your costs & overall labor. If you have more firewood than you can use sell it for added income and that new stove will have a payback of only a little bit over a year or two. I started out this way and today sell over 50 cords per year as a hobby.

Good Luck and welcome to the forum

shinnlinger · January 11, 2009, 04:06:32 PM

Hi,

Alot of old timers set the wood to be split in an old tire(some prop it off the ground on stakes) to split. That way the hunks dont fall over and you can whack at them untill they are done with no bending over in between.

fishpharmer · January 11, 2009, 04:38:04 PM

Welcome from another new guy.

I am no expert in anything, know a little about cows and hay, and a good bit about fish and ponds.

Here is the contribution to the good answers you already have:

1. I had a red oak that fell during Hurricane Katrina in 2005. I had it cut into three sixteen foot logs that was 24" at the smallest end. My plan was to cut it with my still unfinished homade mill (another story).
A month ago I cut it up for firewood. It had a couple inches of the punky stuff but the center was suprisingly good and solid. I actually think it would have made good lumber. The first I burned didn't dry more than a week. Burned great. But hard to split ( was sorta knotty) which brings my comments on question #2.

2. If you think you need or want a gas over hydraulic splitter go rent one. I did. The red oak never would have got split by me otherwise. My local stihl dealer rents them for $45 per day. I got more out of the rental by having all my wood cut in stove length first before picking the splitter up. They have them for about $1300 at the local Lowe's. I am thinking about building one :D

3. Don't have a clue, it was in the 70's last week, 40 this morning. I like splitting wood better in the cold.

My $0.02

SwampDonkey · January 11, 2009, 09:02:11 PM

We had one built for $400, just use an old snow blower motor. ;D

If the wood is green, splitting in winter is much easier. When it dries, not a lot of difference one season to the other, splits hard. :D

Banjo picker · January 11, 2009, 09:40:02 PM

Quote from: fishpharmer on January 11, 2009, 04:38:04 PM
Welcome from another new guy.

I am no expert in anything, know a little about cows and hay, and a good bit about fish and ponds.

Here is the contribution to the good answers you already have:

1. I had a red oak that fell during Hurricane Katrina in 2005. I had it cut into three sixteen foot logs that was 24" at the smallest end. My plan was to cut it with my still unfinished homade mill (another story).
A month ago I cut it up for firewood. It had a couple inches of the punky stuff but the center was suprisingly good and solid. I actually think it would have made good lumber. The first I burned didn't dry more than a week. Burned great. But hard to split ( was sorta knotty) which brings my comments on question #2.

2. If you think you need or want a gas over hydraulic splitter go rent one. I did. The red oak never would have got split by me otherwise. My local stihl dealer rents them for $45 per day. I got more out of the rental by having all my wood cut in stove length first before picking the splitter up. They have them for about $1300 at the local Lowe's. I am thinking about building one :D

3. Don't have a clue, it was in the 70's last week, 40 this morning. I like splitting wood better in the cold.

My $0.02

Quote from: fishpharmer on January 11, 2009, 04:38:04 PM
Welcome from another new guy.

3. Don't have a clue, it was in the 70's last week, 40 this morning. I like splitting wood better in the cold.

From what I am hearing we may get our chance later this week. ;D Temps here could get to low teens or so. Tim

Banjo picker · January 12, 2009, 08:52:33 AM

Sorry for the double quote, I did not preview it before I sent it. I'll try to do better. I did not even know it untill James PM me. The computer gliched as I was trying to send it. What I was getting at is we are supposed to have some of that cold air down here this week. :-[ Tim

swtfsh · January 12, 2009, 08:05:27 PM

Quote from: cheyenne on January 10, 2009, 08:10:02 PM
Where upstate.....Cheyenne

not too far up there...out between New Paltz and Accord...(just happy to be off Long Island!)

swtfsh · January 12, 2009, 08:08:12 PM

Quote from: ahlkey on January 11, 2009, 02:08:52 PM
In addition to what has already been mentioned try to build clutter when splitting with a maul. It is amazing how effective you can be if you arrange your blocks in a way that they are supported by each other in order to keep them upright. I have also welded a hook to the end of my maul so I can minimize having to bend over. I do enjoy the workout of splitting wood as you are doing something productive rather than just working out at the gym. I also have a PTO hydraulic splitter that I use whenever I need to do more than a few hours of splitting. In that case, I have bulit a nice platform so everything is at the same level. Having a 4-wedge attachment is money well spent.

Another thing to consider is a new stove. Make sure your stove has over 70% efficiency. It is surprising how many old stoves out there are in the 20-30% range which in the end means you have to burn twice as much wood, which just doubles your costs & overall labor. If you have more firewood than you can use sell it for added income and that new stove will have a payback of only a little bit over a year or two. I started out this way and today sell over 50 cords per year as a hobby.

Good Luck and welcome to the forum

thanks, and, yeah, I hadn't thot of that....the stove was here when we got here...it's from the 70's....built right up the road...it's an old tank of a thing....probably way inefficient!!

swtfsh · January 12, 2009, 08:08:43 PM

Quote from: jdtuttle on January 11, 2009, 08:22:15 AM
Welcome to the forum. I too live in upstate NY near Ithaca. If you want some free firewood come over to my place & i'll load you up with some slab wood. Free!
jim

hey, thanks for the offer!

swtfsh · January 12, 2009, 08:10:27 PM

Quote from: shinnlinger on January 11, 2009, 04:06:32 PM
Hi,

Alot of old timers set the wood to be split in an old tire(some prop it off the ground on stakes) to split. That way the hunks dont fall over and you can whack at them untill they are done with no bending over in between.

hey, thanks for the old trick; definitely worth a try!

John Mc · January 13, 2009, 10:29:07 AM

Here's a web site with some great info on heating with wood:
www.woodheat.org

Good info on a wide variety of firewood and woodstove topics.

The main thing to keep in mind is to burn properly seasoned firewood in your woodstove. Not only does it burn cleaner (less creosote forming in your chimney, and therefore less chance of chimney fire... not to mention less pollution), You also get more usable BTUs out of it. I've read that burning green wood sacrifices around 40% of the BTUs (heating and then evaporating the moisture, and burning less efficiently due to reduced temperatures in the firebox).

Knock around that site a bit and pick up a few tips. I'm not saying everything on there is the absolute "gospel of woodburning", but there is some helpful stuff there.

As for your questions:

1)Wood that has been on the ground can still make good firewood if rot hasn't progressed too far. It can pick up a lot of moisture from the ground, so don't assume it's "ready to burn". If you can't get to it to cut, split and stack right away, just getting it up of the ground a bit will help. Wedge a couple of short blocks under it or something.

2) The manual-pump hydraulic log splitters work, but are very time consuming. The ones I've seen are rated around 10 tons or so. That will split some decent sized wood, but my bet is that most of it would also split just fine with your maul. I would not think of that as a replacement for your maul or the "slide on a rail" manual splitter you have. If you are at all good with what you are already using (and if you aren't now, you soon will be if you keep at it) -- you can run rings around the manual pump hydraulic log splitters. (My powered log splitter is only rated 16 tons. On rare occasions, I wish I had a bit more - maybe 20 tons or so - but it works fine for me and the few friends I lend it to. If I was splitting firewood for sale - either as a real business or a serious hobby, I'd have gone bigger.)

3) As far as winter splitting goes, I've found far more difference from species to species than from summer to winter splitting. (I posted a good story on here awhile back about 170 pound me splitting Ash vs. 220+pound former marine friend splitting elm at my place. He just couldn't figure out how I was splitting many times what he was with apparently no effort on my part.) I've heard arguments both ways on splitting green vs dry wood as well.

SwampDonkey · January 13, 2009, 01:40:00 PM

Quote from: John Mc on January 13, 2009, 10:29:07 AM

The main thing to keep in mind is to burn properly seasoned firewood in your woodstove. Not only does it burn cleaner (less creosote forming in your chimney, and therefore less chance of chimney fire... not to mention less pollution), You also get more usable BTUs out of it. I've read that burning green wood sacrifices around 40% of the BTUs (heating and then evaporating the moisture, and burning less efficiently due to reduced temperatures in the firebox).

There are a lot of people around here in my neighborhood that don't seem to grasp that. They delay cutting firewood until the snow falls and are always burning green. It would be different if it was next year's wood, but no, it's for now. :

You should see all the smoke around their yards, heck in a southeast wind it lands on me. They have to burn wood all day. Here I am, never had to put wood in since 8:00 am this morning, and won't for at least another hour. :D

rebocardo · January 14, 2009, 12:47:55 PM

> disadvantages of using trees (for firewood)that are already on the ground

None, just dry it off the ground on pallets (plastic sheet between pallet and ground).

> 2) feedback on those manual, two-handled, hydrulic log splitters?

Skip them, get a $300 electric log splitter from Lowes with the warranty. I already returned on after I killed it doing big red oak. Newer ones seem to be valved a bit lower for the by-pass valve so the ram head does not bend.

I bought mine at season's end $240 - it has been great, especially for kindling.

10 acres is not enough to heat entirely by wood in your area, from what the land produces, unless your house is super efficient.

So, if you already have a trailer, what you could do is skip the electric log splitter, get a small gas powered one, go get trees cut into rounds, split while there, toss the log splitter into the trailer and then the firewood and haul it all home.

Engineer · January 14, 2009, 03:24:29 PM

Might differ a bit from the answers you already got.

I use an outdoor wood boiler. Many think that you can cut and burn just about anything you can fit through the door. That is true, if you like being irresponsible, both to yourself and the environment. I cut and split everything to 16-20" stove length, just as if I was going to put it in a small inside woodstove. I also built a woodshed this fall and it holds all the wood for the OWB that I plan on burning in a two to three month period. I won't put anything in the OWB that hasn't spent at least a couple weeks in the woodshed attempting to dry. Of course, right now everything is frozen solid so it doesn't make whit of difference.

As far as dead on the ground, my rule is this: if I can pick it up in one piece without it flaking off or turning to crumblies in my hands, I'll burn it. Wood is wood, even if it's punky. I will still let it dry if possible. I burn anything I can get my hands on, even stuff that most woodstove users shy away from. Woods like pine, sumac, spruce, hemlock, it's all fair game.

I wouldn't want one of those manual quasi-hydraulic splitters if you gave me one. I prefer a maul and wedges. Even for the big knarly rounds, if I can't split them by hand, I'll rip them with a chainsaw and then try again with the maul. If you don't have the strength or ability to swing a maul, rent or buy a gas-powered splitter. Hand splitting wood in cold temperatures is great because the wood will just POP apart and the exercise warms YOU up at the same time. I'm gonna skip outside stuff around here for the next few days as it's not expected to get above 10 degrees until next week.

As far as the value of burning seasoned wood. I've been keeping a meticulous count of what has been going into my wood boiler, for conversation's sake. I put 16 pieces of mixed hardwood and pine in this morning, on a good coal bed. 16 pieces average 5-6" diameter and 20" long. I will add another 4-6 pieces tonight just after dark. That will keep me going, in sub-zero temperatures, for 24 hours. I heat 4300 square feet of living space plus enough hot water for a family of 7. In warmer temperatures, I can skip the evening 'feeding' and go 24 hours. In late spring through early fall, that same load will probably get me 36-48 hours burn time. In contrast, I was struggling with a tarp-covered pile of wet scraps and junk wood last winter, and chucking the biggest stuff I could find in the boiler, and it was a terrible chore to keep up with feeding it and sticking to a good schedule. Often I'd fill it up with some wet or green chunks and come back 8 hours later, only to find that the fire had gone out completely. This morning I could have shoveled 40-50 lb of good charcoal out of there (and might do so for future use). It's awesome to see a bed of coals a foot thick, 3 ft square, glowing orange and a mass of small blue flames everywhere.

Lately we've been cooking in the OWB (but that's another thread at another time) :D

Radar67 · January 14, 2009, 03:41:00 PM

Which boiler do you have Engineer?

Engineer · January 14, 2009, 04:00:29 PM

Central Boiler 5648.

SwampDonkey · January 14, 2009, 04:20:46 PM

I use 3 half slabs of 20 inch from 10-12 inch trees. Or there might be some finer stuff that I will only use 4 chunks. Lasts (heat wise) 8-9 hours, fan usually runs steady for 5-6 and then intermittent the rest. Right now it is 75 F in here and I put wood in at 8:20 am and just now at 5:15 pm. Fan kicked in about 5 minutes after I came up stair from adding wood. Won't add any until midnight or 1 am depending when I come out of my evening nap. Outside temperature is +3 F as the sun sets. ;D

John Mc · January 15, 2009, 11:42:21 AM

Quote from: rebocardo on January 14, 2009, 12:47:55 PM
10 acres is not enough to heat entirely by wood in your area, from what the land produces, unless your house is super efficient.

In my part of Vermont, a rule of thumb for a reasonably productive piece of forestland is that you can get half a cord per year, per acre for firewood. This is not taking all the growth off that acre. It's a sustainable yield, and still leaves the best stuff for eventual harvest for higher value uses. With 10 acres, he probably isn't planning on a commercial harvest, though.

A typical well-insulated house here will burn 3 cords per year of seasoned hardwoods, if heating primarily with a woodstove. Depending on what shape his woodlot is in right now, he might make it OK harvesting off his own land if he gets a good efficient woodstove, and his house is reasonably tight and insulated.

Jeff · January 15, 2009, 12:03:03 PM

I've always been taught that in this part of Michigan, which has a pretty good dose of winter, that a 10 acre mixed hardwood woodlot is more then sufficient to be a sustainable firewood source for a home.

ahlkey · January 15, 2009, 04:17:37 PM

Jeff, you should be fine with 10 acres of sustainable forest to heat your house and could even do it on less. I have one brother who heats his ranch home of 2,000 sq ft in Wisconson on less than 8 acres using only Aspen! This does assume that your woodlot is healthy, your house is at least a reasonable energy-efficient home and that you can get a modern energy efficient stove. Equally important is making sure that you get a stove that has long burn times, as who really likes getting up in morning to fire up! I have a Hearthstone model and typically it gets between 9-10 hours heating life before I cannot start from the coals. Likewise, that you are willing to use both hardwood and softwood (whatever is available to you). As mentioned already probably the most important thing to keep in mind is to burn dry seasoned wood as it all comes down to BTU output and without dry wood you will never be completely happy.