Dot Com Timber

[Jeff]

Has anybody else noticed the influx of the dot coms trying to do timber business on the web? My site members are sending me stuff all the time they get in the mail. I try to visit these sites and see who's behind them. Most of the time it is a dozen joe dotcom geeks and one guy that "held a position" with a large timber industry company.
I am talking about sites that sign up members like ours, not the huge market sites. The difference is my members get a webpage, a phone call(or ten) and I am trying to help our Michigan landowner manage his timber through education, not by trial and error. I do not receive 1 cent from any business that may occur because of my site. I may start listing timber sales, but only because my members have requested it,, and it will be a free service to them for allowing me to take care of THEIR network.

These sites even spam me. I know I don't sign up for their info, they just know I am here and want me to know that they know.

What are your thoughts on actually transacting a timber sale on the web? Is this better then over coffee at the landowners table? Do we need a middle man other then a forester?

These new dotcoms do give you a number though...

[Ron Scott]

I seem to get such announcements as they go on line. Their membership rates are usually too high for me. I would favor just a posting of "timber for sale" in the membership area with a simple prospectus of the sale provided for interest and information. I would not want to transact the entire timber sale on the web. Too impersonal.  
P.S. I got to talk to Chris "Jake" Smith today as a result of your Network's info.

[Jeff]

Not my Network Ron, It's your's and all the other members. I 'm only the caretaker. Thank-you

[Gordon]

How is a price reached or should I say set for the timber? Or do they low ball the landowner and sub it all out? Leaving one of those classic bomb sites when finished.

One way that might be helpful doing business over the net is if you had alot of veneer wood and couldn't get much locally but outside buyers would pay alot more.---just a thought
Gordon

[Ron Wenrich]

Timber value is equal to the log value less logging costs and profit and less procurement costs.  Log value is equal to the green lumber value less milling costs and profit.  

Several problems arise when trying to valuate timber.  Many foresters have no idea what the inside of a tree looks like, or what it would yield.  Some loggers have this problem as well.  I see a lot of value loss due to poor bucking.  Very few foresters know how to grade trees and how that reflects on timber value, present or future.  Mills are often just as bad.

Veneer often can't be told from the outside of a tree.  Wormy wood, amount of sapwood, gum streaks, and mineral can't be told until the timber is cut.  Most guys figure the veneer should pay for the timber.  Any logger who sells veneer can give a good idea of what is there.  They make their money marketing logs, not logging.  Foresters make their money marketing timber.

I have been both a procurement forester and a consulting forester.  Both operate the same way, but the consultant is looking for the highest available price.  Procurement foresters are looking for timber at a reasonable price.  Timber pimps are looking for timber at bargain prices.  

The pimps will bomb an area.  They wear all sorts of labels.  Some are consultants, procurement foresters, and loggers.  Slash for cash.

A good procurement forester will mark and bid a sale as well as a consultant.  His value will reflect what the timber is worth, knowing that someone else can come in and make an offer as well.  Sometimes you get it, sometimes you don't.  My sale quality did not differ from procurement to consulting.  Junk was always marked, and crop trees left with the thought of doing business further in the future.

Selling any forest products on the net is problematic.  Logistics is a big problem.  Trucking will suck up a great deal of profits, unless it is a specialty item.  Most dealers need truckload lots.  Figure $1.25/loaded mile.

I would think it would be OK to market equipment this way.  Timber sales would be good for advertising.  The amount of mill owners and loggers on the net is probably pretty small, yet.

[Gordon]

Great post woodtick, you covered all the bases on that one. Guess I should clarifiy my broad question on timber pricing. I was trying to figure out how it could possibly be done over the net without either a local forester cruising the property or an agent of some sort.

I know that there have been trees that I've looked at before I dropped it and thought man this is a beauty, only to drop it and find that it was eaten up. That learning curve sure can be steep at times!

You also bring up a valid point about trucking at $1.25 a mile that racks profits pretty quick.
Gordon

[Ron Wenrich]

Landowners marketing their own timber need at least a timber cruise.  A landowner could cruise his own timber.  I even wrote an article on timber cruising for About.com.  The secret's out.

I don't know of too many guys that would buy without a cruise and not walking it.  But, I guess it could be done with pictures.  A good eye could tell how much timber is there and then lowball it.  

It wouldn't do much for any type of management or pricing.

[Gordon]

Na, it's no secret even I knew about that, a very good piece. Shoot I believe that if you did it with pictures the value would be pennies on the dollar. The landowner would end up with the short end of the stick. But one never knows, one person might see something that the other does not and might bid alot higher. Guess that is the chance you take.

Guess I'm still old fashioned like to be in the woods and see what I'm getting myself into or out of.

Then again you know as well as I or you even much more so that you could get three different foresters out there and get three way different calulations of value on the stand. You've worked both sides of the street. Getting timber and selling timber. So you know how different the math can be.
Gordon