Qtr. Sawing dug fir?

[oregonsawer]

  I have a guy that wants full dimitional 2x6 sawed
across the grain.
Or to me it would be qtr sawed.
So much waste!!!!!
My question is how much to charge in these trying times.

Thank you in advance.
Oregonsawer

[SwampDonkey]

I saw a hockey stick the other day that looked like ash quartered, it was from the Ukraine.

[tyb525]

I'd charge by the hour with something like that that requires more time and handling. Waste is not much of concern to you if you go by the hour. I know qtr sawn is usually stronger that flat sawn.

Just to add im sure you've been sawing longer than I have (just a few months) so lets see what others have to say..

[sgschwend]

Wood expansion is the same it just the other axis, so I would  say qtr sawn is not more stable the stability is the same.   

I would tell the customer that you would be willing to use a particular technique for  4/3 times your normal rate. 

Then cut the boards this way:  slab off 1/3 of the log and set it aside, continue to slab down to the last 1/3, then rotate the remainder 90 degrees and cut your boards, finally put the first 1/3 on the mill and cut it.

Note: in the two 1/3 sections the board width will varry unless you make a thickness cut first.

Folks who want qtr sawn normally are only concerned with the thickness and know they will recieve variable width boards.

[ErikC]

  A couple questions.  What is the intended use? much vertical grain doug fir that is clear goes into window and door work, and flooring at times. Clear fir like this is very expensive, at least 4 times the cost of good framing lumber. Don't be afraid to charge according to expected value. How big are the logs? A bigger log will make this easier for you, but more clear wood probably, therefore more value for the customer. To big and it turns into more work for you. I'd figure on that aspect some as well. 

Also if there are a lot of knots, they will be spike knots in quartersawn, and are often structurally weaker, not stronger, than the same wood flatsawn.

[Brucer]

These numbers are in Canadian dollars, so knock 'em down 20% to convert to US$. Keep in mind, too, that Coast Fir is denser than Interior Fir.

I sell full dimension 2x6 Douglas-Fir for $.80/BF, flat sawn off the outside of the log when I'm sawing timbers. If the customer wants all heartwood, the price doubles, because I'm basically turning a valuable timber into lumber.

If the customer wants edge grain, the price jumps to $2.10/BF because I'm burning a BIG timber into lumber.

For CLEAR flatsawn 2x6, the price jumps to $2.00/BF -- 2.5 times my regular price. That reflects the fact that there's not as much clear wood in the Interior Fir that I saw.

If someone asks for clear edge grain, I'm going to multiply my $2.10 by 2.5 to get $5.25/BF. I'd probably round it down to $5.00. If the buyer whines about the price, I'll send them to the local lumber yard to check out the price of clear Coast Fir. It's 5 bucks for flat sawn 1". Sometimes they come back, sometimes they give up on the project, sometimes they lower their standards.

All this depends on your local market. These are my standard prices and so far people are still buying. This year if it's a contractor, I'll probably bring my price down 15% to 20%. I need to help the local contractors stay in business these days so they'll be around to buy my timbers when things get better.

[kderby]

Whoo boy this one screams "Hourly Rate."  I always want to know end use and then apply my self to that application.  The customer may truly know what he wants or he may just know what he has been told.  I just milled some walnut, flat sawn.  I had observers ask why not quarter saw the walnut?  I had a nice tree and wanted the wide, cathedral grain boards.  Quarter sawn can be superior for some applications, it is not the holy grail that some people make it out to be.

I had a customer approach me and say he had milled a cherry tree and wanted it kiln dried right away.  That would assure that the lumber would would stay straight. I wonder if he ever popped the bands on a unit of "KD" lumber and watched it dance.  I gently discussed the importance of moisture content and the relative convenience/value of air drying.  He is air drying it.  I expect it will be just fine.  As the sawyer, I am the expert (scary thought).  Tell me the end use, show me the logs and forward we go!

Back to your situation, create a happy and educated customer.  Get paid by the hour while doing it.

IMHO :-\

[Chico]

It'll have to be a good sized log to get many 2X6 s out of it true quartering it By  the time you get to that face size unless it's a very large log you're going be turning definately a by the hr job too slow in relation to footage  Now if it's a bastard qtr like a lot customers think is qtr sawing you'll get a little more but still a lot of work in relation to footage
Chico

[Gilman]

I charge similar to sgschwend, but I charge 1.5 times the normal rate.  It works out pretty close to the same $/hr.

[KnotBB]

How to cut it depends on the size of log and type of mill you have.  I charge based on gross log scale, custom sawing cost more than just sawing.  Full sawn reduces yield but not scale.

D.Fir does not have to meet the standards of quarter sawn hardwood. Unlike oak there are no rays to show.  "True" quarter sawn D.Fir is a meaningless statement.  The grade book refers to Vertical Grain.  Clear is of course the top grade but knots are allowed in some grades, "shop" come to mind and then you get into the number of clear cutting (like hardwood) available.  Minimum 6 rings per inch but most buyer prefer 8+.  Wholesale green full dimension DF is around $2/bdf. + or - depending on width.  Clear green flat grain is about $0.50.  No stain allowed in either.

Mostly, if the wide surface looks quarter sawn, shows the edge grain, it is quarter sawn.  The grain can be up to about 45 degrees off of vertical and show such grain.  Lots of leeway.
The reason vertical grain is used in doors and widows is because of its stability, not its strength.  Once dried it stays in that shape.  The strength comes from the fact that it is generally clear, it's D. Fir and dense.  VG Fir is VERY stable. It is not rated as a structual wood.  No slope of grain requirement.

I use a swing blade and cutting VG fir on larger logs is not a real problem.  Waste yes but I still cut flat grain boards.  They are taken to use the non-VG wood. I can probably cut over 70% of the log that qualfies as VG without moving the log. 

I open the log  parallel to the bark.  The boards you get from the outside have part sap and part heart wood.  Makes beautiful flooring with the contrast in colors.  Near the center of the log grade generally falls down, more knots and lower ring count.  Remember, under 6 rings per inch is out of grade.  The center is where I try and take out the taper, at best generally it's just boards. I change direction of the wide cut as I work my way across the log to keep the grain orientation correct.

If you've got a band mill you'd have to do it different.  Cutting deep wide cants, rolling them around and resawing come to mind but I know nothing about sawing on a band mill.

PM me if I can help, maybe coffee if you're near Salem. 

Steve

[Chico]

Never sawned any western logs My statements are based on mainly tropical and domestic Hws I have qtr sawed some YP but most anything that would be good enough paid more as Amended Genoa Prime or C and D boards or 12 x5/4 stair tread as the ring count in it was not unlike the ring count you're talking about . I always wanted to come out west and saw but too far away from Sweet tea and grits ;D
Chico

[Dodgy Loner]

D.Fir does not have to meet the standards of quarter sawn hardwood. Unlike oak there are no rays to show.  "True" quarter sawn D.Fir is a meaningless statement.  The grade book refers to Vertical Grain. 

Since the customer wants 2x6's, it sounds like he will be using the boards for structural purposes.  Therefore, any grading rules that are based on appearance, like the ones you describe, are not very useful.  Again, this highlights the importance of finding out what the customer will actually be using the boards for.  True quartersawn douglas-fir is not a meaningless phrase, because a board with the rings perpendicular to the face of the board will be more stable than a board with the rings at 45^o to the face (and it would be riftsawn, not quartersawn).

[Shamus]

I just filled an order for clear edge grain Doug-fir 2" x 6". The customer was using it for stair steps. Sure was purty...

[Brucer]

I just filled an order for clear edge grain Doug-fir 2" x 6". The customer was using it for stair steps. Sure was purty...

How much, Shamus?

I've got a customer here who might be interested. I can do the dimensions and the edge grain, but clear isn't going to happen anytime soon. I'd be happy to steer him your way.

[Shamus]

Hi Bruce,

yeah the big old Doug-firs are getting a bit scarce these days. I have a few nice logs tucked away right now. My standard price for dimensional fir is $1.00 per board foot, and it goes up from there, depending on grade and dimension. Clear edge grain Doug-fir 2"x6" I'd sell for $4.00/bd ft.

I'm also working on a stack of clear 2" cedar...