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Hoping for some input on a ROW situation

Started by thompsontimber, June 10, 2009, 10:17:26 PM

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thompsontimber

Not sure where this topic might "belong," but I'm throwing it out there hoping some of you folks might have experience or expertise with this issue.  I recently purchased a tract of landlocked timber in Chesnee, SC under the assumption that a deeded right-of-way could be used for access into the property for our operations. The adjacent landowner's deed was conveyed subject to road right-of-ways and dirt road easement as shown on a corresponding recorded plat. The landowner did away with the existing dirt road easement and made the property into pasture, blocking the old road with fences and sowing it over in grass. After approaching him for access across his property, he refuses to allow access, and says that he has been advised of his rights by his attorney. He claims that I cannot access across his property via the described right of way without putting up a substantial bond, agreeing to put his pasture back in its current condition, closing the road and re-establishing grass to his exacting standards, and having the landowner present at all times to open and close gates everytime we enter or leave his property, which he knows is not feasible. I am seeking knowledgable advice on my rights and the rights of the landowner who contracted me. The family I am working for is very poor and quite intimidated by the wealthy neighbor that has closed their road and denied them access into their property, and now fear that he will be successful in blocking their attempts to receive revenue off of their timber by blocking any access for harvest operations. I have never had any problems accessing property when a deeded right of way exists, so I am not sure how to handle the situation. The man has already threatened to be waiting on me with a gun if we attempt to cross his property with any equipment.
The right of way is deeded and drawn on a plat.  It has been permanantly closed by the neighbor it crosses, but you can still clearly identify the historical roadbed from aerial photos.  The family does not regularly use or access the property and has not complained prior to this time about the road being closed.  The neighbor giving the trouble is very wealthy, while the folks being kept out of their property are very poor.  I have obtained permission to access across another neighbor to cut a portion of the property and can cut enough to cover what I have paid into this contract, but my primary concern is for these poor folks that are being walked on by an arrogant, belligerent neighbor who is accustomed to getting his way.  So, anyone have any similar experiences?  Can this be dealt with without hiring an attorney?

Radar67

Sounds like a court case to me. If the right of way is deeded, the courts should find in favor of your customer, and the loser should have to pay the court fees.

I have a deeded right of way to my property and as it was explained to me by the attorney, I can do whatever I deem necessary to keep the road up for access to my property. Now my neighbors are fairly nice people and we are not disgruntaled with each other either.

Now for my disclaimer, I am not an attorney and you can take my advice with a grain of salt, but I would consult an attorney before I did anything else. It would be worth the hour consultation fee to me.
"A man's time is the most valuable gift he can give another." TOM

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WH_Conley

I have seen this before. Saw a couple of times that after enough time an offer would be made on the property, cheap. Seems like sometimes a guy just wants to be a PITA. No way to handle it without an attorney, those days are gone.
Bill

thompsontimber

I am accepting all replies under a "threadwide disclaimer" Radar, and I do appreciate the input.  I'm certainly not holding any opinions up as legal advice.  I guess the answers so far are exactly what I expected, as I don't see much way around without involving an attorney either.  I fear the folks I'm cutting for are gonna be way too scared of costs and avoid hiring a lawyer, and I'm not in a position to do it for them.  Anyone know if there might be some merit to his claims that I would have to provide him with a bond and close the road back in its current condition?

fishpharmer

I lived in SC for a spell and dealt with something vaguely similar.  It involved access to hunting and fishing. Its been 20 years or so ago so I suppose it may have changed.   But it was my understanding that a road that was historically there for a period over ten years could not be closed.   Of course the burden of proof falls upon the landowner.  I think you may approach the county supervisor or even the local highway department concerning the road and see if they have a say about it.

But on the flip side it seems like the deeded right of way only applies to the deed holder if the neighbor wants to be technical and I suppose he does.  Sounds like the wealthy landowner wants to buy the property for himself with the timber on it.  I know South Carolina has laws against hunter harassment, probably something protecting loggers too.  You might just ask a local game warden or state forester, they might be familiar with the current access laws and give you some good free advice.

My $0.02
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beenthere

What jurisdiction is the property in?  Township?

In WI, I would first go to the local government Board or supervisors for information.
Have a very similar situation just a mile from me, and the farmer whose land was crossed tried to keep the right of way closed, claiming crops would be ruined, etc. I understand the local township became involved and tho it's been a bone of contention for years, the land gets crossed, crop or not.

In WI, there are state statutes that land cannot be "landlocked". Might be something in SC that prevents that from happening too.

Wish you a good outcome, as well as the landowner.
south central Wisconsin
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thompsontimber

Thanks fishpharmer...actually, the right of way is conveyed on the neighbors deed.  In a nutshell, the neighbor that closed the road has the following statement in his deed for his property: "This property is conveyed subject to power lines and road right-of-ways and dirt road easement as shown on the aforesaid plat."  The plat referred to has the old dirt drive drawn on it.  Another words, this in not a case of me bringing a long forgotten road to the attention of the man and claiming to have an ancient deeded right of way across him.  He purchased his property with full knowledge of the right of way and he is the one that closed it.  You are dead on in your assessment of the situation, he fully intended from the beginning to buy the property for himself with the timber on it.  He offered to purchase it when he bought his land, but the old man refuses to sell it to him or anyone else as long as he is living.  He closed off the road and fully expected to purchase the land "as is" for cheap when the old man died, knowing the family would be in need of the money.  They foiled his plan when they decided to harvest the timber, and needless to say, he's pretty ill about it.  No doubt he expected to own the property in a matter of time and assumed the old right of way would never be an issue in the future.

DanG

Well, it's good to see that you're still circulating, Thompsontimbers. :) :) :)  Last time we "talked", that seemed to be somewhat in doubt.

I would contact the County Attorney and see if there is anything he can do to enforce the law.  It is a pretty slim chance, but he may be able/willing to give you and your landowner some help.  That may well hinge upon whether the rich guy is a local "good ol' boy" or a wealthy outsider. ::)
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

thompsontimber

beenthere, the property is in Spartanburg County in South Carolina.  I am not sure if recent changes have been made in SC, but to my knowledge property can still be landlocked in certain circumstances in SC.  While NC is a no landlock state, it seems that it can still be very tricky, expensive, and tedious to get a right of way when none exists.  I ran into a situation on another tract in NC with no right of way about 3 years ago, and it still hasn't been resolved through the courts despite the fact that a historical road exists and its the only access in and out of the property. That is one reason I am so apprehensive in this situation, as I've already seen that when the law should be on your side and things seem rather clear, the legal system still finds a way to muck everything up and turn a simple situation into a complex nightmare.  No idea why those folks can't get a right of way, but they don't have one yet.  
Of course, in this instance, a right of way definetely exists and is recorded.  The issue is that it has been closed and for a period of time in which no one attempted to dispute the closing or have it opened back up.  Now the man that closed it is claiming his land use rights supercede the rights of the landowner with the right of way.

thompsontimber

Yes, I'm still hangin in there DanG.  Things have actually picked up quite a bit, and we have been able to work regular, though the weather has made that tough all spring.  We are finally getting plenty of rain after quite a period of drought.  I'm sure that has played a role in our local mills needing wood again too.  We still can't make a DanG thing on hardwood sawtimber, lose my butt on bout every load we sell.  Pine logs have picked up a little though, and the pulp market is on and off like a faucet, but we can move hardwood or pine one, which beats moving neither which was the case a short while ago.  I actually got a letter one day begging for pine pulpwood, only to get a call the next day telling us we were on pine quota.  Selling every stick of hardwood pulp I can get without trouble at the moment.  No profit margins, but at least we are getting to keep the help going again. 

As for my right of way situation, I'm afraid he is of the "good ol'boy" variety.  Local family with money.  His dad seems to be well regarded, but I've yet to find anyone that talks very well of the man I'm having to deal with. Apparantly he is an all around jerk, and his money has definetely gone to his head and overinflated his ego.

Chico

I would think if it's recorded that you have the right to cross it but it might cost you more than atty fees if you know what I mean You should be able to go to the Tax office and look at their plats and if it, recorded there I'd see what I had to file to cross the land I know in Tn if it's on a deed it's not debateable  jmo
Chico
My Daughter My sailor MY HERO God Bless all the men and Women fighting for us today If you see one stop and thank them

Chico

Go to www scstatehouse.gov/CODE/t27c008.htm It says the re must be a way for agric forestry etc That should give you an Idea
Chico
My Daughter My sailor MY HERO God Bless all the men and Women fighting for us today If you see one stop and thank them

thompsontimber

Well my way of thinking was just that Chico.  I thought the deeded right of way meant it wasn't debatable, but I've been enlightened by this hostile neighbor who is certainly giving me a debate.  I do fear it is a fight not worth fighting, as it could consume time and money I don't have, not to mention lead to vandalism or some other act of violence by this disgruntled neighbor.  However, knowing that these poor folks are getting walked on by this jerk makes it hard to just let him have his way as usual.  If I walk away, which would probably be the smart thing to do on my part, I know the family will continue to be bullied by mister moneybags, and its DanG aggravating to see what seems to be blatant disregard for these folks property rights.  I could see being on the other side of the situation and having someone cross my property and not liking it.  However, this guy bought his property with full knowledge of the right of way and its location, so its hard to have any sympathy for him and what he is trying to do.  And after the way he talked to me, I can't deny wanting to cross that property pretty bad  ;D
Of course I want to keep the peace above all, but it seems crossing his property can not be done without having a fight on my hands.  Thanks for the link, Chico, I'll definetely check that out.

Chico

My Daughter My sailor MY HERO God Bless all the men and Women fighting for us today If you see one stop and thank them

jrdwyer

A situation I dealt with in KY involved a neighbor who removed a big metal culvert on an old road that was no longer in regular use, but provided access to a tract of timber belonging to my client. This was once a county road that had been abandoned by the county when the culvert was removed, but no written notification had been given to my client concerning abandonment. As upkeep of county roads is part of the property tax bill, and my client had been paying taxes all those years, these two facts became the basis for gaining access through the neighbor's fields. I believe he used an attorney to press his case with the county and they nudged the neighbor to provide alternate access through his fields.

I had another case where a ROW was made part of a deed when my clients sold their old home site but kept the surrounding woods. When I met with the loggers and neighbor (3rd owner) to use the ROW for my absentee clients, the neighbor said that you cannot cross my pasture to get to the woods. I explained to him his deed had an easement (ROW) in it expressly created by my clients for this purpose of accessing timber. I gave him a few minutes to think it over while I called my clients, and when I returned he was more interested in looking at the ROW location and giving permission to use 'his' ROW. As long as he felt he was in charge, his attitude was more cooperative. The loggers were happy to set up a temporary electric fence to keep the horses out and all went well.


Gary_C

I had a reply typed and somehow lost it. So I will redo it and be brief. Go to the court house and see if the road has ever been a part of the county/township road system. Depending on what you find, try the county sherrif or county attorney to see if they will help in getting your forceably denied access restored.

Most likely as others have said you will have to hire an attorney. And don't assume that just because the other landowner has money that he also has friends in high places. Arrogance is never well tolerated, even when you have money.

I am actually dealing with this same issue on two state land timber sales right now. Both parcels are landlocked with no deeded access so even the state cannot get access to their land where no record of any access can be found. On the one sale the adjacent landowner will give me access for nothing and believes he will get something from the state for long term access. I thanked him and wished him well on that idea. On the other parcel, the adjacent landowner wants $1000 for a very long and poor trail access on a pine pulp job that I am paying $1900 to the state for the stumpage. I told him that was too much and he promised to talk to his mother who actually ownes the property and get back to me. I may just walk away from that one as I have not bought it yet.

These landlocked parcels are a problem everywhere and there is never an easy answer. So if your client wants his property rights, he may just have to fight for them.

PS: forgot to add that after you gather information, try negotating with the other landowner. Tell him that your client could demand and get a permanent access road restored to his property and perhaps at his expense since he illegally removed the previous access. And point out that it could be very costly to defend his actions and he would loose that court battle. Just make sure to not sign anything new to jeapordize future access.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

underdog

Times are a changing.
Seems you cannot get much of anything done these days without an attorney.
And usually an insurance company.
Which seems to be a building full of gambling lawyers.
Maybe you can help them poor people out and write it off on your taxes?
We have been going thru similar here for about the last 2 years.
Our family has a piece of property in a remote location.
One old county road in from another county goes by a grave yard and is mentioned in property deeds back to the 1800"s.
That neighbor is trying to deny access.
We have been dragged into court by him for using the road.
The other way in from this county has a county road (that's still on the active books) leading to it.
One of the neighbors with political connections blocked it and got away with it.
First the county board ruled it was in fact a county road.
That took several months.
Then they could not or would not re – open it.
Our family has been paying a lawyer for a year now, trying to get a county road that's on the books re-opened.
Guess it will not be much longer you will need a lawyer and an insurance representative with you as part of your work crew.

Ron Wenrich

I never had too much problem with ROW on most properties.  PA is a non-landlocked state.  

I did have a problem with a local township.  They put a weight limit on a road after one of the hurricanes.  We had about 150 acres that we were going to clearcut and it had heavy mortality due to the gypsy moth.  We told the township we would bond the road.

The township supervisor told us that they would not allow it and that we couldn't harvest the timber.  Our response was that they have then bought the timber.  And, since it was a unilateral decision on the part of the supervisor, we wouldn't be suing the township, we would be going after him.  His decision was causing us not to harvest the crop.  Access was granted.  It also helped that the landowner was an attorney and worked for a big law firm.

I don't know if you can use that angle in your case.  Ours was a forced sale due to the mortality and any delay caused a value loss.

The same tract had the road going into another township and they didn't like the trucks.  So, they tried to stop the trucks at the township line by putting their cruisers across the road.  The mill owner got in one of the trucks and pushed a cruiser off the road.  Case solved.

2 different ways of handling the situation.   ;)
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

ellmoe

  If you can cut some of the timber through a defferent access as stated, the landowners should then have money to retain an attorney to help solve this issue. It's not your responsibility. Having stated that, after a man threatened me, I'd be inclined to take it personally and adjust my behavior accordingly. In Florida there is (or was) a law to allow access to cut timber. We used it twenty years ago to buy a twenty acre parcel surrounded by a 10,000 acre property. Later when the big tract's timber was sold, we were excluded from the bid. :o Instead we bought the logs from the logger. ;D

Mark
Thirty plus years in the sawmill/millwork business. A sore back and arthritic fingers to prove it!

woodmills1

I would do some simple deed research.  Trace back both the landowners and the neighbors deeds to find the original situation that created the need for the ROW.

In my opinion the words "dirt road easement" are very vague, especially since the neighbor has physically removed the road.  BTW, when, how long ago, did the neighbor do the work.  What you need to find out is how the need for the acces road was created. and what original wording was put onto both deeds

lets say farmer A originally owned the entire parcel and lets say your clients own a piece called the back and the lousy neighbor owns a piece called the front

there are at least 3 possible ways that the back lot was created

1. farmer A sold the front and kept the back

2. farmer A sold the back and kept the front

3. farmer A sold both the front and the back

of these 3 possibilities, depending on the deed wording, possibility 2 is what will work in your favor.  When this is the situation, a person gives rights to another over their own land, there is a very real sense of permancy to the transaction.  the courts tend to rule in favor of the ROW even with vague wording

possibility 1 has the least amount of help for you, as the original owner was only giving himself the rights to what then became another persons property.  In this scenario the future deeds need to spell out the nature of the access, with more specific wording to preserve the ROW.

possibility 3 is also not much help as the original owner was giving rights to another over a piece he was giving up his ownership of.
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4genlgr

going to stick my nose in

the guys are right  it is going to take a lawyer because the guy has a attitude. it could be as simple as a letter informing him of the  law in SC, with examples explaining the lot owners rights.

my family had a subdivision problem and after serveral go rounds in which the phrase "the law says...." or "the ordenence(sp)says this" was probably used by both parties our lawyer did further reasearch into the state laws and cases ,that showed how the law was used and inturpted by the court, and the town had to grant the permits (sales to relatives dont ffall under the subdivision law or something like that)
how much is the wood worth?  the cost of advice shouldn't be more than a truck load and believe me i understand! that every penny counts


if the lot owners have good deeded rights that can be proved, the bond still might be a good idea for all parties involved for field repair etc. just to be neighborly ;D

Raider Bill

Maybe call the Sheriff and show them the deed with ROW?
The First 70 years of childhood is always the hardest.

J_T

Had a man try to take over an close an old county road an cut out another mans entry . :'( I bought his trees an he told me that the man had closed him off . I checked all the county records an the road was never legally  closed  ::) To make short story long i unloaded my skidder early one morning an went at it . :o Most i would do is have a survey pin at edge or that easement and go. Then if the law came i would tell them to areast him for trespass or theft in excess of 1,000 dollars .In my case i never talked to  that man an waved at him every load i hauled out .If the cops had aided him them an him could of been sued .Some rich men will steal the whole state if you let them .
Jim Holloway

Gary_C

One other thing I should have added earlier. These disputes are much better resolved by negotating rather than by legal means. I know of one such dispute that went to court and the judge was going to award access to the landlocked party. But the judge sent the two parties out before he ruled and told them to settle their differences or he was going to grant access by the shortest route there was and neither side may like what he was going to do. So they settled out of court on a mutually agreeable route.

That's always the best way.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

zopi

You mentioned that you had access from another point..can you figure a way to access the whole property from that angle?

Maybe make nice with some of the other neighbors for some sort of compensation to access from a different place...not knowing the layout I don't know, but it seems that going around the gripy od fart might be theway to go...too bad you don't have a helicopter.. :D
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