When did walnut prices skyrocket?

[Frickman]

Here's the story. A few weeks ago I visited a local landowner who is trying to sell some trees that are on a right-of-way through his property where a new sewer line will be laid soon. The right-if-way follows what appears to be an abandoned street car line, and these trees are on either side of it. It would be the easiest logging I have ever done if I cut the job. The problem is they are all small walnut, mostly pole timber 10" to 12" dbh, heavy to 10". There are a few smaller post size trees and a few sawlog trees. One sawlog tree is about 24" dbh but it was open grown, bent, forked, scarred, and otherwise pretty beaten up. There isn't anything there that really got me excited. Fifty or so walnut and not a decent sawlog on the whole place.

I didn't scale the timber, but I offered $200.00 / load for everything I could drag out, about a load and a half to two loads of logs and maybe a half load of firewood. Tonight I made a courtesy follow up phone call and found out someone offered $2200.00 for the trees. Pole size walnut for $1000.00 + a load on the stump, maybe $1500.00 a load. Where was I to miss this market?

[Wild willy]

Has to be some one with a real strong buyer for the turn around? Or some young logger that said walnut I will make a killing? Who knows it's only my two cents, but I no in todays market I would not pay even close to that when we can buy a state job for 2/3 thousand dollars and cut 40-60 thousand feet of saw timber and a hundred or more tons of pole wood. Don't no to each their own.

[Chico]

You can bet their going to make it on him somehow or their going to string him out You may still get it .you can't pay that for that type log and make it
Chico

[Frickman]

Wild willy and Chico,

I may still get it, but I don't care. I would do it just to get my name into this particular neighborhood, maybe get some other tracts out of it. The landowner sort of jumped all over me for offering such a pittance as he is a timber expert. Apparantly working in the business full time as I do takes a back seat to talking one time to a forester. It seems he found a forester who offered him $2200 and a forester has to know more than a mill owner, everyone knows that. Although PA anyone can call himself a forester, there are no educational or liscening requirements. I can call myself a forester if I want to.

Anyway, my bid of $300 to $400 was an insult to him. He said that he wouldn't let me "put one wheel on the property and tear stuff up for that kind of money". Of course the pipeline company coming through next month aren't going to tear anything up either.  ;)  And I guarantee they won't pay a cent for those trees. They'll probably end up going home with the crew as firewood.  :D

Buying timber from private landowners takes alot of the skills and traits that were present in the door-to-door salesmen of yore. You have to have thick skin and take alot of rejection and slammed doors and still remain positive, upbeat, and especially, nice. I look at many possible jobs to find one where my ideas and the landowner's match up. When you do find a landowner like that there's nothing better.

I still don't know where this supposed forester came up with that number. Maybe he'll do a cut and run and not pay at all.

[thedeeredude]

No biggy, the forester will put an ad on craigslist telling woodworkers they can have a bunch of walnut lumber, all they have to day is pay him and cut them down and clean up.

[Kcwoodbutcher]

 I think the market is way up. I had a friend inquire at a mill south of here about buying his logs, they were paying $2.50 a BF and up for decent logs. I couldn't get that for KD lumber a month ago. I think the chinese are buying again.

[Ron Wenrich]

If the Chinese are buying, they're not buying 10-12" poles that are mainly sapwood.  They're either buying sawlogs, veneer, or sawn lumber. 

I sure would like the name of the forester.  You don't need a degree to call yourself a forester, but, don't ever be put on the witness stand and call yourself a forester without a degree.  The state won't put you on their forester list without the degree. 

To be fair, your offer of $400 for 5-6Mbf of timber isn't all that high, especially for easy logging.  But, you have the advantage of having looked at the timber, and I haven't. 

[Sawyerfortyish]

Your offer may seem a little low to some but from what you describe it sounds like a load +/- of firewood. I myself would not waste my time cutting small walnut for lumber. Each tree is differant but small trees like that would be mostly white wood. Maybe they can steam it and make it dark but just add more cost to the lumber. I would find out more about the guy that does the job. I think he's blowing smoke  ;).

[Ironwood]

Frick, I ouldn't get too worked up. The sale near me that you lost out on was a wash. Talked to the logger who did get it, he didn't make much money, but worked at it pretty hard. Seems your wisdom will outsmart youth and inexperience everytime  ;)

       Ironwood

[Frickman]

Ironwood,

This particular job is the one I had called you about. They were nice straight trees, but there was lots of sapwood. They are growing in a low place along a creek. Also, since they are along the old street car tracks I bet there is alot of other funny looking colors in the wood. You have a use for crazy looking wood, but most of my markets do not.

Ron,

I tried to weasel the name of the "forester" out of this guy. He was kind of beligerent so I let it go. His missus was a real sweetheart though. Either opposites attract or he was putting on a show. The way he was talking he found some forester that offered him $2200, but then he said that the forester would cut the trees and bid them out on the landing. I haven't ever heard of too many foresters cutting timber and then bidding the logs out on the landing.

I highly doubt there was as much as 5-6mbf there. I guessed around 4. Like you said, I was there and you weren't. If you sawed out all the peckerpoles you might have had 1 to 1.5 mbf of 2c and better of mostly sappy and narrow grade lumber. The rest was blocking and firewood.

I don't saw a bit of walnut lumber because of the sawdust. Any walnut I cut gets sold in the log to guys like Ironwood. It is not a major species in these parts so I don't delve into the markets too much. On this job I would be just logging and selling logs, no milling. I thought it was an interesting job, and an easy one too. Ironwood could log it with his new crawler pretty easy.

It is a shame to cut these trees, they are the prettiest patch of young walnut I've seen in a long time. They're being cut though to lay a new sewer line. It looks to me the line is following the old right of way. It sure made it convenient for city hall to get it shoved through.

[Ron Wenrich]

My volume estimate was simply 3500 bf/triaxle load of logs.  You must have a smaller truck.   ;)

I have heard of a few foresters that have tried this method.  Most of them get stuck because they really don't have the experience or the smarts to market logs.  Marketing timber is easy compared to logs. 

You'll probably run up against this situation again in the future.  Here's how you have to present it to the landowner.  The forester has given him the gross proceeds from the sale of all the logs, not the standing timber.  From his $2200 estimate (if he gets that much), he'll deduct his commission of 15%.  So, his net is now down to $1870.  From the forester's perspective, it looks like a higher amount of income, but its a lot more legwork.

But, you also have to deduct the logging costs.  Since its small logs, that might come out to $250/Mbf.  So, that takes off another $1000, so his net is now down to $870.  Being that its a small job, they might charge another $200 to move the equipment into the job.  Net is now down to $670.

Trucking?   Yes, I forgot to mention the trucking of the logs will be about $2/loaded mile.  Since there's a couple of loads, you can quickly figure the trucking will cost about $400, so the net is down to $270. 

And that's assuming that he gets $2200 for the logs.  Did he write that guarantee into his contract?   Maybe you need a lawyer.  Hmmm.  I guess he can spend that extra $70 on the lawyer.   ;)

Comparing log prices to standing timber is apples and oranges. 

[Ironwood]

Ron, Thanks for the analysis.

Frick,
       I would like to see the logs after they get to the landing. Tell the guy to call me (if you still have his #) the advantage is you will get the satisfaction of knowing how it played out.

Hopefully he will be happy with his $270  ;D

Ironwood

[Rocky_Ranger]

Speaking of PA, was up there last week around Milford, beautiful country.  Never been there before but will go back with the misses some day.  I could have done without the snow, however, was outside and got wet last Thursday.  Leaves looked to be in peak, downright pretty area......  Spent the week at Grey Towers so didn't have much time for a shenanigan.

[Ron Wenrich]

And if you would have gone another 25 miles you would have been in Happy Valley. Home of Penn State.  Football weekend, homecoming, and party time.   8) 8)

Next time you're in the area, let me know.

[Rocky_Ranger]

Will do Ron, I was lost as a goose in fog and short on time getting into the area, our travel system is built on failure so ain't nothing easy.  I could have come up Monday and had more time to look/visit.  Man, I'm jealous of all those big old yellow poplars...  Like I said - beautiful area (and to a forester that means lots of trees!).   

[Frickman]

Ron,

I always figure 3000 to 3500 bf / load too. I've learned though that's hard to do in small timber. Especially if it makes a bunch of eight foot logs. I've had triaxle loads that only scales 2000 bf / load.


I'm not really worried about this guy. I don't ever get uptight over two loads of logs, that's for sure. Not even over twenty loads of logs. These small acreage and volume jobs are everywhere and many go begging for a logger to cut them because they're small jobs. I sort of have a little niche in harvesting them, and I do pretty good at it. I make money though and am not afraid to say so. That's why I do it. If I want to work for free I go out and feed my cows.

Having thought about it I think this guy was blowing smoke, if he even knew what he was talking about. I doubt he knew what he was talking about.

I found something out years ago when negotiating on timber sales, equipment purchases, etc. Make your best offer and if the other party doesn't like it, just walk away. Many times I'll get a call next week, next month, or next year from the other party agreeing to my terms. If you look desperate, you lose. Just make them think you don't care, which I don't. If I have a place to sleep and something to eat I'm happy, I don't care what they do.

Ironwood,

This job is back a hollow and is not visible from the road so I won't know if and when it's cut. If I see anything I'll let you know.

[fishpharmer]

If I want to work for free I go out and feed my cows.

Maybe I should start logging.   :D

[nas]

If I want to work for free I go out and feed my cows.

Maybe I should start logging.   :D

He said cows, not fish ;D

[fishpharmer]

I have been eyeing some walnut trees.  Maybe I should check on the local market.

Cows or Fish, I have both and both are equally unprofitable.  But I eat good ;)

[Gary_C]

I'm not sure they (walnut prices) ever came down. There has always been spirited bidding over Walnut stumpage around here. At the last Minnesota DNR auction, a company from Ohio bought some Walnut stumpage and paid a good price for it. And just last week a logger was walking the private land that I cross for my DNR sale counting Walnut trees as the landowner was thinking of selling.

Walnut prices still seem high and steady here.

I just looked back at that last sale and on one sale 15.04 MBF was appraised at $2300 and sold for $3565 per MBF. Another lower quality sale had 15.46 MBF that was appraised at $1050 and sold for $1470 per MBF.

[rickywashere]

last load my old boss sold we had them ready to haul to market a guy came by that had his own contacts to buyers . of the tractor load 2 full bunks with a few decent logs in the middle of the 2 ... guy offered my boss 5000.00 outright  boss jumped on it .. now take in mind this was a few years ago when logs where paying pretty good.. we left them on the tractor buyer came out 2 days later we un-loaded them he graded them paid the guy he got 4100.00 off the load plus he paid boss's son another 350.00 to deliver them to the buyers yard.. small logs even if they looks great just dont pay .. even though we had had several nice logs the majority of them where just to small to have any real value ... like they say its buyer beware