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Author Topic: Forest plan gets the Axe  (Read 3343 times)

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Offline Gary_C

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Forest plan gets the Axe
« on: December 19, 2009, 09:11:09 PM »
I saw this news story that came out of the Climate Conference in Copenhagen.

Forest plan gets the ax at UN climate talks
 


COPENHAGEN (AP) - A plan to protect the world's biologically rich tropical forests by paying poor nations to protect them was shelved Saturday after world leaders failed to agree on a binding deal to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

Burning trees to clear land for plantations or cattle ranches and logging forests for wood is blamed for about 20 percent of the world's emissions. That's as much carbon dioxide as all the world's cars, trucks, trains, planes and ships combined.

About 32 million acres (13 million hectares) of forests are cut down each year - an area about the size of England or New York State - and the emissions generated are comparable to those of China and the United States, according to the Eliasch Review.



If indeed the burning of the forests in tropical countries contributes 20 percent of the worlds emissions, would it make sense to pay them to stop rather than this carbon credit thing that will hurt our economy?

Or is what they claim even true?

Are they still burning tropical forests at that high rate?
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Offline tughill

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Re: Forest plan gets the Axe
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2009, 10:27:21 AM »
My understanding is that this is grossly overstated.  As far as I know, most of the harvesting in south america is done with axes and hand saws, and the average 'logger' might cut a couple trees per week.  Typical government lies and deception...this is just meant to get the greenies all stirred up, and distract people from real issues.  'Ignore the man behine the curtain'.
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Offline jim king

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Re: Forest plan gets the Axe
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2009, 10:42:44 AM »
Here is a short article I just wrote about tropical forestry.  I had to erase the photos to upload it but I noted where they were.

DOES LOGGING IN THE AMAZON CREATE DEFORESTATION ¿

In order to discuss this topic a number of things must be understood.  Possibly the most important and misunderstood fact is that people have been led to believe that there is a huge lumber industry in the Amazon.  This is simply not true.  The Amazon forest is the size of the continental US and the annual harvest of the entire forest located in 8 countries is about the same as the annual harvest of Oregon.  The lumber harvest in the Amazon  amounts to "5 cubic inches" per acre per year.  The Amazon as with any tropical forest is biologically very diverse and it is not unusual for 100 species of trees to grow on one acre and no one knows how many species exist.   In the tropical forest there are but a handful of species known and exploited for world  markets.  Loggers simply do not have the time , resources or reason to spend time and money cutting trees and creating deforestation. This simply does not lend its self to deforestation when possibly up to 4 trees of  hundreds are harvested per acre for use as lumber.  Tropical lumbermen are generally speaking very small businessmen of little means and are not in a position to deforest anything nor capable of destroying the jungle due to their meager financial means.  They work in a form that could be best related to as subsistence living.

 



Photo showing typical illegal logging operation that is created from the inability to work legally and earn an income .

Deforestation when and where it can be found is for the development of agribusiness on the far reaches of the jungle where crops and cattle can be raised.  The vast high forests of the Amazon have little or no value as crop land when cleared.  The soils are very poor in nutrients and due to the heavy rainfall and clay soils a very high Ph is the norm making plants not common to the rain forest such as corn and beans virtually impossible to grow. 

 



This photo is of rice growing on a fertile riverbank during the low water season

In the Peruvian Amazon the deforestation of tall forests is minimal and almost 100% caused by subsistence slash and burn farming and cocaine cultivation.  The wood cannot be harvested and sold on the international market but the very destructive methods of slash and burn are in fact encouraged and government financed and are a failure by all standards.  This is a story that goes around in a circle.  The financing of poor subsistence farmers to grow alternative crops sounds like a winner.  The problem exists that the jungle soil is no good for crop land and the land must be deforested to do this.  One must keep in mind that the river people of the Amazon have not yet learned to till the soil.  They only know slash and burn as it has been used for centuries  due to bad soils and the need to keep moving.

 



Legal slash and burn for agriculture that will not work

Financing slash and burn and false hope projects is done to create a false temporary income for the rural people which generates votes as they are not allowed to harvest the forests properly.  Where one or two trees from an acre of land could generate a good income for a family for a month they are forced to slash and burn or grow cocaine due to the forestry laws initiated by the international “Non Profit” ecological industry.  Most families own property or the village where they live owns property where proper tropical forestry methods could create decent lifestyles.  If this is not done the slash and burn will continue.

 



This is typical of a cocaine nursery which are becoming very common as the people cannot work in forestry.  Here there were about 100,000 seedlings ready to go to be planted.

 



Illegal but ecologically sound harvest

 Whereas the ecological industry creates a lot of well paying office jobs in North America and Europe it creates poverty and forest destruction in the tropical forests of the world contrary to what they were designed to do.

It is very important that the  tropical forests of the world are not destroyed as was done in the United States as shown on the maps below from the US Forestry Service.  Sensible forestry with job creation is the key to saving the worlds remaining forests.  The future of the tropical forests depends on proper use and proper management of the forest.  The world is in the midst of a population explosion and it is very difficult to train people not to eat.  They need productive jobs, not service or office jobs or passing out sacks of free rice.  They need to feed their families in a way that is not destructive and that they can be proud of.

Tropical forestry laws have been designed by the “Non Profit” ecological industry to perpetuate the myth that the forests are disappearing at a pace that “maybe in 10 years the Amazon will be gone”.  These kind of statements are perpetuating the myth to keep the fund raising going and the paychecks coming in North America and Europe while destroying forests and the lives of tens of thousands of families in tropical areas of the world.

THE TERRIBLE HISTORY OF DEFORESTATION
IN THE UNITED STATES 
 



The Amazon has a major renewable resource which is wood which managed properly will feed the people and create a society that is not dependant on international welfare.  There needs to be a study of what trees are growing in what areas and in what volumes and an intelligent forestry plan put forward.  The screaming about species going extinct when no study has been made is ridiculous.  It is very difficult to believe but absolutely true that with of all the “Ecology Industry” experts that exist in the world today  they don´t have a forestry study or factual base covering what they are complaining about.
The Amazon and other tropical forests of the world need professional foresters and training in order to obtain any level of industry competence.  The Ecology Industry only reaps the benefits of crying wolf and does nothing to improve the forests, the people or the local governments.

The forest as with any other resource has no value unless it is used and managed.  It is ironic that the same people who every day drive to work burning up non renewable resources  are fanatical about saving the tropical forest which is basically self perpetuating.  The only real danger is misinformation and bad management.
Logging in tropical forests does not create deforestation but the make work foolish farming projects are decimating the forests but promoted as a substitute for forestry.

The perfect renewable resource is the tropical forest and not the other make work schemes currently in vogue.  The world should know that if they would buy tropical lumber products they would be helping save the tropical forests.

BUY WOOD AND SAVE THE FORESTS

Offline Gary_C

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Re: Forest plan gets the Axe
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2009, 11:00:43 AM »
That is kind of what I thought was the truth. But could you download those pictures as photos and insert them back in that piece? I'd sure like to see them.
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Offline jim king

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Re: Forest plan gets the Axe
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2009, 11:56:30 AM »
Gary_C:

Thanks for the direction on the photos , it worked.  As I have said before I need some ten year old to give me classes on everything that can be done. 

Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: Forest plan gets the Axe
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2009, 12:05:53 PM »
I always enjoy reading Jim's assessment of the Amazon. Someone who lives there has a much better perspective than the bureaucrats that are going to "save" it.

But, how do the tropics of Africa and Asia fare?  We only hear about the Amazon, since its close and relatively easy to get to.  I remember seeing pictures of areas in Asia that were clearcut to supply the Japanese markets.  I wonder if its any different with the Chinese and Indian needs for wood.  There are much higher population demands in those areas as compared to the Amazon. 
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Offline Gary_C

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Re: Forest plan gets the Axe
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2009, 12:11:23 PM »
Jim, thanks for the photos. That's interesting to see. Could you tell us more about this "legal slash and burn." How is is legal and how do the natives make money from this practice? And if it's for agriculture and it doesn't work well, what happens to the land?
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Offline beenthere

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Re: Forest plan gets the Axe
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2009, 12:22:33 PM »
Ron
Africa is experiencing similar "green" pressures from outside countries.
Earlier this year I worked with a fellow who had the means and the plan to go into Gabon to log and export timber.
I lined him up with an International Consultant from the States, who managed to guide him into his big plan, only to learn that outside forces had the timber in Gabon completely tied up. It is these peoples ONLY resource, and they can't sell or cut it. Some worldly groups have twisted this around so these people continue to starve with a huge resource in their back yard.
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Offline jim king

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Re: Forest plan gets the Axe
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2009, 01:13:08 PM »
Ron: 

 I think you will find that the Asian clear cutting you see is the result of land clearing for Palm Oil Plantations.  There probably was some timber salvaged and sold but very little as they have the same "rich" flora and fauna problem that the Amazon does.  Meaning that there are ony a small handfull of species that are marketable.  The Japonese and Chinese only buy a select small group of species and you could not give them the other 99% of what grows.

Palm oil trees are native to  Sub Tropical West Africa and do well in tropical soils worldwide.
Oil Palm is the most productive agricultural crop per acre in the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_palm

Offline jim king

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Financing slash and burn
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2009, 02:27:49 PM »
The slash and burn is financed thru the Regional Government of the Department of Loreto in Peru under  a scheme known as “ The Productive Region “ .   The financing is for crops such as “Sacha Inchi” which is an oil producing plant that  is promoted as being equal to fish oils from cold water ocean fish for health benefits.  It has identical properties to flax oil which is very abundant on the world market and very low cost.  The  vines of Sacha inchi are quite delicate and the result has been an absolute disaster.

Another crop was “Uña de Gato” or “Cats claw” which was promoted in  Health stores in the US and Europe .  It was the miracle cure for Aids, diabetes and whatever else needed fixing.  That has gone out of style now.

Another was and is “Camo Camo” which produces a cranberry like fruit and it grows in areas that flood and the plant although 6 to 8 foot tall is totally submerged several months a year.  This was sold to the Japanese for a while but now it is more or less standing still.  This one did not create deforestation but just a lot of money spent trying to grow another type of Cranberry.

The next was palm oil and palm hearts.  A lot of land clearing and no results.  All of that land is now doing well as fast growing jungle.


Another was clearing pasture for Water Buffaloes.  The people got the loans and buffaloes but never cleared enough land to feed the buffalo and as a result ate the hundreds of breeding stock animals brought in from Brazil.


Cocaine started here in the jungle  about 10 years ago and the production is exploding.  The people in the jungle need to eat and cannot cut trees in most areas so they have no alternative.  Here at least you can give full credit to the growing production of cocaine to the “Ecology Industry” forcing people to deforest to grow dope. A campasino growing cocaine makes less than if he was allowed to cut 2 or three trees a month.


The newest is my fault.  I worked for a couple of years to get the law changed to permit people to do selective logging on their own land with chainsaws bringing out cants.  We finally got the law changed and what happens ?¿  A couple of weeks ago a guy from the government came to the house to advise me that he government is now going to give $30,000 USD non collateralized loans to people who live in the jungle under thatched roofs in huts to buy a chainsaw and cut cants.  These loans as all the others will never be paid back.  The guy that came to the house certainly get 15% of each loan “approved”, he will probably skim half a million dollars.  The people receiving the loans for wood production will first buy a new car battery to power the new stereo and TV  they are going to buy.  Another important purchase will be new city type shoes that their feet will not fit in and Ray Ban sunglasses.  What is left will be spent on hookers and beer.

It is not a coincidence that these loan programs that affect thousands of people  are all initiated immediately prior to elections.

Now to make you really feel good .  The US government thru USAID as well as many other governments  donate millions of dollars a year to promote these programs in Peru.  Can you imagine what the total is world wide ?¿    And now they want to pay these countries more to stop the slash and burn that they themselves are financing   ?¿?¿     

Señoras y Señores  I must be missing something .

It appears that for the last few days there was more hot air in Copenhagen than the Amazon.

Offline Fla._Deadheader

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Re: Forest plan gets the Axe
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2009, 03:17:09 PM »

 I read a report a few days ago, that stated that donations to ALL the "Green" Organizations, totaled $92,000,000.00 A DAY, just a couple years ago. YES, that's 92 MILLION A  DAY.  :o :o 

  This is where a lot of the money Jim talks about, comes from, besides Governments giving away Taxpayer money.

 
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   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

Offline LeeB

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Re: Forest plan gets the Axe
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2009, 03:22:51 PM »
It would be interesting to see where that $92,000,00 a day goes to. You can bet somebody is getting fat on it.
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Offline fishpharmer

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Re: Forest plan gets the Axe
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2009, 03:29:55 PM »
All I ever hear about is DEforestation.   Does anyone have any figures concerning REforestation.   Here in MS its seems pine tree are planted at rate at least 2 acres to each acre clear cut.  And that's an unscientific observation.  I will need to get a figure from the forestry commision. On a global scale I wonder if anyone can give a number?

Also, here in MS if you left a field unattended, no bush hogging, no cattle...in a few years you will have some kind of reforestation whether its desired or not.  I actually have an area like that, I can show pictures of side by side results here in MS.

 It seem like there would be exponentially greater amounts of growth in tropical regions.  Maybe I should ask Jim King, CRtreedude or FDH?   

I have total confidence in what Jim King tells us and it seems like there is not the wholesale deforestation presented by some sources.

If a clear area in a tropical forest is left unattended for several years what kind of plant succession occurs?  I would bet most people would call that area a forest if seen five years later.


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Offline jim king

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Re: Forest plan gets the Axe
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2009, 04:38:05 PM »
I hope that no one understands this one.  It is fact that the Peruvian government here is paying people to cut down the wonderful biodiverse Amazon jungle and REforest it in Spanish Cedar and Mohagany monoculture stands.  Luckily most of the money for this program gets lost.

They are doing this to show they are REforesting.  One thing they forgot is that both Spanish Cedar and Mahogany only grow on certain soil types which are not  in the Reforesting areas.  It is a total failure.

The areas where subsistance farming has been abandoned grow back differently than original and it takes the second generation to get back to what was the original forest.  This happens quite fast here .

I suppose I should thank you all for paying your taxes that fund these worth wile programs here.  Did that hurt ?

I really don’t think that any of the millions of dollars donated daily to the “Ecology Industry” from private individuals , companies  or governments gets to places like the Amazon or places like it.  The ecology industries own bureaucracy chews that up raising more money.   It appears to be a legal Ponzi scheme for management. 

I just checked on Google and today there are over 43,000 web sites of “ forestry ngo Iquitos”.  What they all have in common is that they are doing wonderful things in Iquitos and every page has “Click here” to send money.  It is simply all lies.

 Google on this one from the World Wildlife Fund.  If you go to this address  in Iquitos it is a store that sells baking flour , they don’t know what the WWF is.
1.   WWF - Peru
WWF Peru, Iquitos. WWF Peru Loreto Office Calle Loreto 337 Iquitos Peru +51 1 65 23 3661. WWF Peru, Madre de Dios. Jr. San Martin G6. ...
www.panda.org/es/acerca/donde.../paises/peru/ - En caché - Similares
 
Here are some photos of the address shown by the WWF of their office in Iquitos that coordinates all the wonderful things they are doing here.
If they lie about this what about the rest,  where does the hundreds of millions of donations go.
 





Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: Forest plan gets the Axe
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2009, 06:42:32 PM »
 :D :D

They're planting trees here in places they have no business planting them and sending me in to cut them down with a brush saw on public forest. ::) Why on God's green earth would they plant a black spruce in the ground when there are 25 natural red spruce growing up around it? If not them, then lots of fir. If not them, then lots of hardwoods. :P  :-X

If they want to accomplish something, invest in something to chip those old umbrella-shaped suppressed fir, of 50 + years of age, they hope will make good thinning and plant those sites.

Very rare for a forest site here to not be regenerating. It would have to be a pith poor site, not worth much to begin with. And I say that even about my ground, I would never have planted it myself if I owned it at the time. Way far ahead to use the naturals that were there. Way ahead. If anything a proper fill planting could be used, to fill the odd hole.

Pre-commercial thinning pays off. :)

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Re: Forest plan gets the Axe
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2009, 08:54:04 PM »
I think it is the epitome of arrogance how the U.S. pushes these little countries around, telling them how to manage their resources. We got to rape and exploit all of our resources, shouldn't they have the same right?
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Re: Forest plan gets the Axe
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2009, 08:53:26 AM »
I like that picture of the slash and burn. I've seen that picture before about how bad it is to cut down trees.  ::) It is too bad that "certain" groups can convince millions about the cutting of trees in the rain forest. I did my part many years ago,but only one person. He was convinced,form his readings,that cutting wood was bad and nothing would grow back.I was cutting my woods at differant stages here. I invited a city boy up into the back woods to see how things was done. I showed him places that was just cut a few weeks,a year,2 years and so on. He was some shocked at what he saw.All the way from raspberries,blackberries and little trees so thick that you could not walk through and some places where Mother nature was starting to thin it out herself. He had a whole new outlook at it now.He asked alot of questions and was a very good pupil.I realize some would not be so easily convinced.It is too bad that lie is so easily spread. It's nice to have someone like Jim there to tell the truth.
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Offline rebocardo

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Re: Forest plan gets the Axe
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2009, 07:34:45 PM »
These green heads all lie, then repeat the lies so it becomes truth. imho, We should butt out of everyone else's business (a speck) until we remove the board (14 trillion in debt) from our own eye.

Their country, their resources, let the local people and governments decide what they want to do. If they want to slash and burn let them. If they want to sell all their lumber to China, let them. It is none of our business or anyone else's.

Until these people latched onto the forests as a way to redistribute wealth, it was the oceans, were most of the oxygen is made, that the oceans were going to be destroyed and we were all going to die.

Same people, same ideology, different scam.


Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: Forest plan gets the Axe
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2009, 05:48:03 AM »
All I ever hear about is DEforestation.   Does anyone have any figures concerning REforestation.   Here in MS its seems pine tree are planted at rate at least 2 acres to each acre clear cut.  And that's an unscientific observation.  I will need to get a figure from the forestry commision. On a global scale I wonder if anyone can give a number?


But, the problem isn't only reforestation, but the fragmentation of the forest, and as pointed out, the change in types of forest.  Fragmentation is the busting up of a large forest into many different types of forest and land uses.  Too often the smaller forests can't support the fauna and flora to make a dent in the continuation of an entire forest community.  Sort of like a zoo being representative of a wildlife community.

I also read that in the US, the numbers are starting to change for the amount of farmland that is going back into forests.  Land clearing is rising due to the suburbanization of the US.  I can now see lights on the mountains where they are now building houses.  They've chewed up most of the available farmland.  This recession may have slowed things down, but they haven't stopped the progress.
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Offline Fla._Deadheader

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Re: Forest plan gets the Axe
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2009, 07:57:19 AM »

 I don't get to tour the bigger part of Costa Rica. All I can offer, through what I have seen from traveling here, years ago, is, Teak plantations were a big thing. Don't know exactly how they were funded. Maybe similar to what Fred has going. Plant trees for folks to cut and sell as they choose. Fred gets first buy option, last I knew.

  Just because Teak is planted by the millions, does not equate to REforestation.  Fred mixes his species, and, I believe he will let the land revert back to natural forest, after the final thinning.

  We planted a very small area, and, we put in trees that will supposedly do well in this area. Others plant for fast growth and fast $$ recovery. The older Teal plantations that I saw, were poorly managed, and trees had limbs you could reach from the ground. Not a high value tree.

  There are other plantations of Gmelina and other varieties, here also. problem is, everything volunteered is cut away. Looks like row crop farms. Nice to look through, but, not reforestation. No diversity.

  Don't know about Peru, but, here, Spanish Cedar and Caoba (Mahogany), are VERY susceptible to shoot borers, and takes a lot of spraying to get the trees to flourish above 20 feet or so, until the egg laying moth quits bothering the trees.

I can't speak for Fred, about his operation, more than what little I heard directly from him, that I already stated.

  As illegal as it is to cut trees here, that Minae has NOT permitted, logging goes on, even in restricted National Forests.  ::) ::) ::) ::)
All truth passes through three stages:
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Started by land_owner on Forestry and Logging

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1540 Views
Last post November 06, 2004, 12:16:30 PM
by land_owner
xx
A Forest Management Plan

Started by Jeff on Forestry and Logging

174 Replies
33647 Views
Last post August 18, 2010, 08:23:51 PM
by SwampDonkey
xx
WNY Forest Management Plan.

Started by chainspinrunner on Ask The Forester

6 Replies
1797 Views
Last post March 09, 2010, 01:40:47 AM
by Brian Beauchamp
 


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