Author Topic: Peterson Sawmills (Read 12610 times)

Rod · « **on:** October 29, 2003, 09:28:54 PM »

Would the Peterson Automated Sawmill be good for cutting ties?

And does anyone have any idea how many ties you could cut a day with it?

And I wonder how much it cost?

I didn't see the price at there web site.

KiwiJake · « **Reply #1 on:** October 30, 2003, 02:18:51 AM »

This is a topic I can relate too

, the automated would be great for cutting ties. A swing mill excells (although, thats not all they excell in) when cutting equal dimension lumber as the motor is using it's full horse power every time, (with a six meter log you could cut a 10"x10" (sleeper) in around 30-40 seconds).

Provided you have a good foundation, log loading machinery (forklift?) and maybe a couple of off bearers, an incredible amount of production a day would be possible, the mill would not slow you down. All this secondary machinery is not crutial but it would REALLY increase your production.

The price is around $28 000 US inclusive shipping.

The mill would be able to push the cants off using it's secondary power pack WHILE it cuts the next cant (2 in one process). It's got a whole bunch of features but that wasn't your question so I'll restrain a bit

.

Just so you know, I am from Petersons and am one of the designers involved in this machine, so forgive me if I sound over enthusiastic toward it at times. Anyway it sounds like we are ready for the US market, I've been told that if we get 3 sales of the automated. One of us will fly over and give detailed training instructions as a group thing. I'm hoping it will be me.

Ianab · « **Reply #2 on:** October 30, 2003, 02:47:43 AM »

Hi Rod
I'm a Peterson owner (older model Stihl powered) but I've seen the Auto mill running. I'd say it would be about the best thing for the $$ for cutting up big railway ties. You would need a good setup like Jake suggests to get max production, cos loading logs and offloading the ties would be the major bottlenecks.
But yes .. it does cut like the claim.

Ian

Rod · « **Reply #3 on:** October 30, 2003, 04:24:53 AM »

Thanks KiwiJaken,I was wondering If I had a forkfift and the help how many 7''x9''x9' ties cut from 15''-20''do you think I could cut a day?

And say you have a 16' log,when you make the cut at the bottom of the log does the tie come done on the blade,or do you put a wedge in it like you do when you double cut?

KiwiJake · « **Reply #4 on:** October 30, 2003, 10:08:09 PM »

OK, I would have three sets of log dogs on my skid, fit three logs this way, two stacked on top of them, and one on top of the two, so you would get a pyramid stack (I would do it this way if I were sawing uniform diameter logs).

If they were not uniform I would only saw three at a time, probably get about two ties out of these sized logs. So that gives me about 6 ties each load. The remainder of the logs would be turned into usable boards.

The sawing process for a set of three logs would probably take 10-15 mins (I'd have a forklift at the other end of the mill so the board remover pushes the ties straight onto the forks).

The ties would not rest on the blade, when cutting big beams it is best to push the boards off the other end, this results by starting the cut in horizontal and then finishing in vertical so
the blade is not under the wieght, check the pic out.

It would probably be possible to get 150

ties a day with an off hand helping.

PS, I am buying my mill (Automated swinger) in about two weeks, I really want to get back into milling, the odd perk jobs around (good profit when you get the work).

KiwiJake · « **Reply #5 on:** October 30, 2003, 11:49:48 PM »

Oops, I was figuring that the logs were about 6 meters, being only 3 meters long you could have 3 sets of logs inline with another three sets of logs so you could double your production, in theory anyway. These figures are not typical but rather what could be possible. Ties are easy cutting so long as you've got a great system for moving and stacking them.

Bring on MY mill

,allready got a big diesel tip truck, trailer and equipment to do it, all I need is my mill. I'll be gettin a hold of it when I get back from the South Island Automatic mill road show. Hopefully I'll get some colourfull pictures of the place when I'm there.

Rod · « **Reply #6 on:** October 31, 2003, 05:10:23 AM »

150 ties per day sounds great.

Even at half that amount would be fine with me.

Thats over 7000 bf of tie lumber per day.

I guess I just might have to buy one from you when you get to the US.

One other question.

Were you figuring the 150 ties with1, 2,or 3 men?

Rod · « **Reply #7 on:** October 31, 2003, 12:27:54 PM »

One more question

What if I put 3 18' logs on the log dogs and the cut 7''x9''x18' ties then drag them back then cut them to 9'. at a later time

My question is does the drag back have enought power to drag back and 18' tie?

KiwiJake · « **Reply #8 on:** October 31, 2003, 01:08:30 PM »

The mill has a drag back OR push forward facillity, in this situation you would push the beams forward. I'll have to cut some 7x9's at that length when I go down south, I'll get back to you. I have pushed off a 10x10 at about 5 meters long but that was pine, the question is not in the power pack but the actual stainless plate that brings it back (some types of wood are very heavy). I'm pretty confident that it would be fine though.

The "drag back" facillity was more designed for your every day boards of lighter wieght as yes heavy beams would come to rest on the blade unless wedges were used.

If you were only cutting the 3 meter logs you could get away with one guy, two if your doing the big 6 meter ones (probably still to heavy for two guys to move around).

Rod · « **Reply #9 on:** October 31, 2003, 02:45:13 PM »

Thanks KiwiJake

If you get a chance try beech or oak 7''x9''x18' sometime.

They would weight about 400lbs

I was figuring I would slide that 18' ties on to the forks with the drag back.

Let me know when you will be in Pennsylvania Maryland Ohio.area,I'll stop and have a look at your mill.

Minnesota_boy · « **Reply #10 on:** October 31, 2003, 04:34:46 PM »

Rod,
When you get the mill, look close at how it is set up. Instead of pushing that big ol tie off the end, maybe you can push it off the side and onto some rollers to move it onto your forks. If you can, then one man can handle it instead of 3. More profit if you can cut the payroll.

C_Miller · « **Reply #11 on:** October 31, 2003, 05:08:23 PM »

Jake,

Are you all working on a video with more info on the ATS? I just got one video about all three machines. One with more detail would be a good thing for me cause I'm in the planning stages of a new barn. From what you've said the ATS would do what I need and more.

C

KiwiJake · « **Reply #12 on:** October 31, 2003, 07:04:24 PM »

The model that I'm talking about is called the ASM (automated swing mill), the ATS is the (all terrain mill) this is a much cheaper version that is all manual.

What I can do is take a video of the shows when I'm down south, of JUST the automatic. What you guys could do to help me is just give your requests, eg "you want too see the mill cutting 9"x7" ties". I'll do this regardless because it needs to be done anyway. (the mill that you guys may have seen is our first prototype in action, much cleaner machine now).

Try and think of every thing you need to see to make your decision all the easier. Post here or E-mail me. I'll be headin off in three days and be back in a week and a half, you guys (provided you give me your address's) will get the full footage from as much as I could get of it cutting/setting up etc.

Rod · « **Reply #13 on:** October 31, 2003, 07:33:12 PM »

Thanks Jake

My address is

Rod Hays

Bickmore WV

BOX 190

ZIPE 25019

Rod · « **Reply #14 on:** November 01, 2003, 05:31:23 PM »

Also the reason I like your mill over the other mills is for one I don't have the bandblades to ajust

Also it will produce as may board feet per hour as an LT70 with the Cat motor.

And also the price difference of about $15,000 more for the LT 70 Cat verses the Peterson

KiwiJake · « **Reply #15 on:** November 01, 2003, 08:12:49 PM »

It's good that your doing your research, another big advantage especially when your dealing with big ties like that is the fact you don't have to re-handle large sections of the log. One pass through the log gives your tie.

I've got your address stuck to my fridge for when I get back, I hope you will be enthusiasticly exited when you get my home video of it.

One of the guys just took a 10" version over to hamilton to give a public demo of it, the host was a Peterson manual mill owner (this guy cuts a heap of wood a day, built like a brick house), he ended up running it the whole day. As they were packin up he said that it was as if he was going to his best mates funeral. Sounds as if he's gonna get one if he can convince his wife

.

Rod have you done any milling before and if so what were you using (sounds as if you are familiar with maybe a bandsaw). Have you got a market sorted for your ties?

ronwood · « **Reply #16 on:** November 01, 2003, 09:29:11 PM »

KiwiJake,

What keeps the mill from moving when you drag back say a 10 x 10 in. cant.

Ron

KiwiJake · « **Reply #17 on:** November 01, 2003, 11:03:53 PM »

About 400kg of the complete mills weight pretty much holds the mill down, other options are simply pegging the alloy skids into the ground. I haven't come across this problem yet so there has been no need. The weight of the beam/tie is not the drag back wieght, the drag back weight is something much less as it is merely sliding (all that is required is a little umph at the very beginning to get slide happening).

Rod · « **Reply #18 on:** November 02, 2003, 04:32:44 AM »

Yes KiwiJake,the tie treatment plants are begging for ties.

And the pallet companies need lumber also as do the flooring companies.

I've done a little sawmilling but not enough to say I've made a living from it.

Another thing I like about your mill is I don't need an edger,or a big truck to move it around.

As far as figuring out how to saw for grade on your sawmill I haven't,but I'm not planning on that anyway as a market.

If everthing works out I might later on get a band resaw to go along with the Peterson.

Cut cants out with the Peterson and run the cant thruogh the resaw.

I could cut for grade with the resaw if I need to.

fencerowphil (Phil L.) · « **Reply #19 on:** November 02, 2003, 05:11:14 AM »

Now look,

I 'lready want a Peterson b-a-d. During the Christmas break of 2001, I studied every brand of band saw, multi-rip circular, and swinger that I could find, via the internet - and that's a bunch of machines. Considering my preference for big hardwood, I was convinced that I needed the king of swingers in my life.

My wife is not convinced.

While I slave with my Alaskan mill, I can still dream, but you guys are making it awful on me. The time's not right . The money's too tight!
Phil L.

Rod · « **Reply #20 on:** November 02, 2003, 08:29:41 AM »

Phil,tell her that if you get a Peterson that you will make a bunch of money from owning it.

That should work

One more question KiwiJake

Does the mill have a place were you might be able to hook up a sawdust hose?

No big deal really,if not I'll just setup on a grate floor and let the sawdust fall through the floor,then use the loader to scoop up the dust.

But I might setup permanent and let the log trucks come to the mill

DanG · « **Reply #21 on:** November 02, 2003, 06:49:47 PM »

Phil, here's what ya do. Go out and rent a half dozen pianos.Get some big ol' oak logs and put them in the driveway. Now initiate the following dialogue:

Phil- Honey, I've got all those logs to saw up before you can get the car out of the garage, but I have to tune 6 pianos, so you'll have to do the sawing.

Wife- Huh?

Phil- Really now, gotta go. Love ya!

Wife- B-b-but, I can't handle that chainsaw!

Phil- Well unless you can tune a piano, you'll have to figure it out. If we had a swing mill, we wouldn't be in this mess. BYE!

After this, she'll go for any kind of mill but a chainsaw.

Trust me. I've been divorced 3 times, and I know what I'm talking about.

C_Miller · « **Reply #22 on:** November 03, 2003, 03:35:58 AM »

DanG now I feel compelled to bring up tha age old question.

Howcome you can tune a piano but not tuna fish? they both got scales you should be able to tune 'em both.

On a more serious note (sorry) I was thinkin to use the swing mill to 1) Break down cant on the loading deck
2) use it on site in the tight areas
3) square up logs for log cabins and timber frames
4) can it cut dados for splines?
I'm sure I'll think of more stuff later.

C

Sven Christiansen · « **Reply #23 on:** November 03, 2003, 07:12:07 AM »

Quote

Also the reason I like your mill over the other mills is for one I don't have the bandblades to ajust

Also it will produce as may board feet per hour as an LT70 with the Cat motor.

And also the price difference of about $15,000 more for the LT 70 Cat verses the Peterson

I'd suggest being very careful comparing any swinger's productivity to the LT70. Apples vs Orange.

Rod · « **Reply #24 on:** November 03, 2003, 07:34:00 AM »

Sven, what do you mean?

Please explain

Sven Christiansen · « **Reply #25 on:** November 03, 2003, 08:24:35 AM »

Quote

Sven, what do you mean?

Please explain

If you use the production numbers we have published, that's based on cutting edged, 1" red oak. The LT70 with the 61HP Cat engine comes up with around 800 bdft per hour. Over an eight-hour day that's 6400 bdft of 1" red oak. (There are a number of other variables involved as well...)

You know what they say about statistics...

I'm simply saying that one should be very careful when making production comparisons.

Rod · « **Reply #26 on:** November 03, 2003, 09:47:44 AM »

Thanks Sven,Maybe when Jake gets back he can tell us how Petereson came up with their 800 bf per hour.

Or maybe its on their web site and I over looked it.

thanks

KiwiJake · « **Reply #27 on:** November 03, 2003, 09:56:35 AM »

Sven, for knowledge sake on a 38" log how would one cut 7"x9" cants, with out rehandling sections of the log (7x9 ties are HEAVY). Would you cut the log through out horizontally 7" (surely the band would get some mega resistance from the wieght as it cuts), once this is done do you rotate the cut up log 90 degrees and cut the square ties out of it with the remainder 9" sections, surely you wouldn't cut every tie individually. If the log does cut this way would one have to fish out the slabs and the good wood at the end or does the machine have a hydraulic clearing arm to load the cut up sections directly on to eg a forklift. 3/6 logs at a time are handy. I would just like to know a little more on your machine. Wieght comes with horse power, and so does extra mechanical gadgets for the justification of the horse power.

SHOOTOUT, is around the corner so maybe it is a little early to be pulling comparisons.

Rod · « **Reply #28 on:** November 03, 2003, 10:09:39 AM »

Thats a good point Jake

Sounds like your ready for the shootout

Sven Christiansen · « **Reply #29 on:** November 03, 2003, 10:20:22 AM »

Quote

I would just like to know a little more on your machine.

http://www.woodmizer.com/sawmills/professional/LT70.html

Now, about the ties. Here in America, one log produces one tie because you can only use the boxed heart. Period.

So, the rest of the log is good for dimensional lumber. Perfect for the flexibility of the LT70 (or any other Wood-Mizer for that matter).

If someone simply wants to cut large cants for resaw, the LT70 will more than handle all the requirements.

The LT70 also has log loading and board drag back to make things easier (that's an understatement) for the user. And don't worry about the blade... They do quite well.

If you or anyone is interested in seeing this done in person, you don't have to wait until next October at the Shootout. Come to a show near you where we're exhibiting the LT70 (or whichever mill you're interested in). We'll cut you a tie and other dimensional lumber on the spot.

http://www.woodmizer.com/support/servev.html[/i]

One final note. I really don't want to get into a shouting match (and I hope no one interprets this discussion as such).

Rod · « **Reply #30 on:** November 03, 2003, 10:41:46 AM »

The tie buyers will take ties that are not boxed here in the US,but by the tie rules you are right that the tie is only to be boxed

They just don't like it if you cut straight through the heart but some times that doesn't matter,just depends how bad they need the ties.

And I have seen the LT70 with the Cat motor when I was I PA.

Its a great mill

Rod · « **Reply #31 on:** November 03, 2003, 11:06:20 AM »

Sven,I was just asking questions.

And they way I've got it figured is even if I did just cut cants for the pallet buyers I would need 4''x6'' or 5 1/2''x6'' cants that brings $300 mft,were a 5/4x6'' brings $250mft

logically I would think they would give more for the 5/4 by they don't.

I know they is a reason for that but I haven't figured that out yet.

RevCant · « **Reply #32 on:** November 03, 2003, 04:38:43 PM »

I can't resist

. I've owned 3 Woodmizers and now I own a Peterson 8WPF. The last WM was the LT40 Super Hydraulic with remote. A very nice machine. I got tired of sharpening blades, trying to deal with big logs, and wavy lumber. I sold the mill, bought a Peterson, added a Lou Brown electric lift, and have seldom looked back. Yeah, its hard to cut stuff under 8 inches, but who wants that stuff on any mill

? I have cut some pretty big stuff (62" dia), but I mostly cut average logs and get consistantly flat, square lumber.

Important note. Manufacturer claims are just that. The real world is a different place. I'm sure the ASM is an awesome machine, as well as the LT70. Nobody is going to cut 800bdft an hour day in and day out without a lot of support equipment and manpower. But if you can afford an LT70, you can probably afford the little extras

!

ARKANSAWYER · « **Reply #33 on:** November 03, 2003, 08:13:03 PM »

Rod,
You should check with them tie buyers again. I do not know of a tie buyer (there could be one) that will buy a hardwood tie that the heart is not boxed. Ties have to be straight and if you cut 4 ties from a 20 inch oak log they will not be straight very long. If you put 3 oak logs under a swing mill that are 15 inch in dia then how are you going to get them out? You will have 3 200lb ties to pick up and move before you get 3 more logs in there. Logs in and waste out then more logs in and waste out. I call it a good day when I cut 20 to 25 ties and 1,200 bdft of lumber. You can make more off of the grade then you can the tie.
What are you going to have to pay for logs? What are you getting for Ties? You said that you get $300mbdft for pallet cants and that is very good. Do you have a loader that can lift 5,000 lbs to put them ties on the truck? Do you have a way to lift them logs off of the truck? Do you have a way to move all of them slabs and sawdust as well as a place to put them? My little band saw cuts 200 to 250 bdft an hour and makes 1/3 the sawdust and at the end of the day you can shovel 5 wheelborrow loads of sawdust and 2 bundles of slabs will have to be hauled off as well 3 bundles of grade lumber and 1 bundle of ties has to be banded and moved.
Just because a mill can cut 800 bdft an hour does not mean you can produce 19 ties an hour 8 hours a day.
KiwiJake,
My little 25hp can pull my 1 1/4 blade while cutting a 28x26 cant in half with out any problems but I have had a 12 inch hickory grab it and not let go.
ARKANSAWYER

Rod · « **Reply #34 on:** November 03, 2003, 09:03:47 PM »

I have checked with the tie buyers,I can get 17.50 for mixed hardwoods,oaks bring 19.50,I can get the junk wood for free but I have to pay the loggers $160 mft to bring them to me.

The Peterson has a drag back

I was thinking of just letting the drag back slide the ties on to the forks.

and you don't stack the logs on top of each other But you place them on log dogs if there small logs.

And yes I have forks that will pick up 3500 lbs

The guys around here have grapples on there log trucks for unloading the logs.

If the slab pile get to big I will just burn them

Or sale them for fire wood

Or dump them over the mountion

The ties don't have to be banded either

The sawdust I will just scoop up with the loader.

And I get paid fridays after noon on ties.

Pallet cants are FOB.

What they have done around here is they have been cutting slective over the years and there are some big cull and junk wood that they need removed so the red oaks can have room to grow.

Like Hemlock,there are companies that are give $200mft now

I can cut that and sale it the the people aronf here for $400mft

A person could even bid on some timber and sale the high grade off and keep the low grade

The big timber companies like Plum creek,Coastal just to name a few need those tree removed

DanG · « **Reply #35 on:** November 03, 2003, 09:04:47 PM »

That's sorta the point I was trying to make over in that other thread, Arkey. Most any mill can outcut it's operator. You either gotta have automation or lots of help to get the max out of the mill. As you add more overhead in salaries, fuel, payments on support eqpt, etc. you have to be sure these items increase production enough to pay for themselves. With wise management, the smaller operator can take a larger portion of a smaller pie, and put coin in his pocket with less headaches. You can't be skeert of hard work, though.

Rod · « **Reply #36 on:** November 03, 2003, 09:24:52 PM »

Also with the Peterson I don't have to mess with those bandblades either

The money I can save buying the Peterson I might buy a band resaw for cants if I need to.

KiwiJake · « **Reply #37 on:** November 03, 2003, 10:05:18 PM »

Hey Rod, to save loading down time and increase production (forklifts are cool) you could stack three logs on your dogged base skids, stack three logs on a second dogged skid on top of your three logs. So basicly you have two layers of 3 dogged logs. The ASM has a large frame, you might aswell use it. So, even if you can only get one tie out of each log you still get production at the end of the day. A band resaw IS a good purchase and I would completely agree that it is not a neccesity but a value added investment.

Arky, you may see a bit more sawdust with a swinger but it's the price you pay for consistancy and production.

Sven, whats wrong with comparing apples to oranges, one may have a bit more tang than the other (if thats what your looking for

)

Norm · « **Reply #38 on:** November 04, 2003, 04:47:01 AM »

I don't cut wavy stuff on my bandmill unless I'm doing something wrong like using a dull blade or trying to cut too wide a board in white oak. If I break a log down to a 12" wide cut they run very true and I can up the tension and go like a bat out of he!!.

I still have not seen how a swinger handles tension in logs. I wish we got all logs with a perfectly centered heart but most are not that way. Captain gave a good explanation on how he did it but I guess I'll just have to see it done as seeing it done sinks in better for me.

Hey I got an idea, WM can send me an lt-70 and Peterson's can send me their new mill and I'll do an un-biased report. I should have it finished in 2 years, 3 tops.

Rod · « **Reply #39 on:** November 04, 2003, 05:09:25 AM »

Thats a good idea Jake

And just for agrument sake lets forget the ties and move on to pallet cants

How would a bandsaw go about cutting 5 1/2''x6'' cants from a log?

We already no how a Peterson would do it,.

And ARKANSAWYER said that just because the company say you can cut 800 feet and hour doesn't mean you will average that in an 8 hour day

He said he cuts 200-250 average per hour per day

So my question is what does your company say you can cut per hour with your mill?

Blade cost on a Peterson for cutting an 8 hour,3-6 mbdf a day is almost next to nothing the way I've got it figured.

How much would it be for bands?

ARKANSAWYER · « **Reply #40 on:** November 04, 2003, 08:30:33 PM »

Rod,
How are you going to slide a 200lb tie onto the forks? Are you going to be steppin over some rollers or something and have the forks just setting right behind you while you saw? Your tie will only be inches off the ground and that is quite a lift. My ties are waist high and my mill has rollers. My mill is said to saw 200 bdft an hour. I have sawn as high as 400 bdft an hour. I can cut any size cant you want and even cut a octagon and taper it if you want that way and never slow down. I have sawn with a swing mill, a band mill, and on a circle mill. I have millions of bdft to my credit and do this for a living. But a man would have to ask himself this. If these swingmills are so wonderful how come here in the states I can not find a single soul who makes a living sawing with a swing mill? I know of several with manual band mills and several MD guys that do it. I even know a old man who kicks his circle saw carriage through the log and pulls it back with a rope that makes a living sawing. When you do this I guess you will be the first I know of but you had better band them ties before you ship them.
ARKANSAWYER
P.S. Maybe "down under" the logs do not have stress

Rod · « **Reply #41 on:** November 05, 2003, 03:45:40 AM »

The drag back will slide the tie onto the forks,I don't have to move.

I thought I'd set the forks at the end of the mill

I will not have to toch th tie

As far as someone making a living with a swinger I really don't know the answer.But the swinger I'm talking about is a new one.No one has one yet.

I don't no of anyone with bandmills around here who are making a living with them.

I know of a lot of people with log trucks and big mills that are making a living tho.

So the board feet per hour must be close on what your sawmill company said you could saw.

The Peterson company says 650-800 feet per hour,so maybe there cloce also.

I'd figure I could cut 75-150 ties a day

cost on blade will be $0

Bands for a bandsaw mill to cut 6000 feet

You will need to change or resharpen your blade about every 500 feet

So 6000/500=12x$6 to get them resharpened=$72+shipping

Alot of blade cost

As far as not being able to cut octagon and taper ,if that becomes high demand I will buy a bandmill.

I believe the blade on the Petereson is 6mm,or 6.6 I think

Those meters get me mixed up sometimes.

Rod · « **Reply #42 on:** November 05, 2003, 04:03:42 AM »

I wonder if Thomas Edison had problems trying to sell people on the idea of the light bulb?

Then he had to sale everyone on the idea they needed electrical power to there homes.

So what I'm saying is just because no one is making a living with a swinger doesn't mean it can't be done.

HORSELOGGER · « **Reply #43 on:** November 05, 2003, 06:16:12 AM »

I think that what Arkansawyer is missing is that he does not make a living with his woodmizer any more or less than I do with my Peterson. I have followed his postings for a few years now, and I dont see where he is sawing lumber exclusively with his days.?(building timber frames, shaging logs , delivering lumber etc.. ) What is "making a living " described as , any way? I make a living logging, sawing, drying and making flooring. My wife does not work and I am building on and paying for my own 40 acre piece of creation. I would never have the arrogance to make my chosen way of life the standard that all others should measure their success by, nor would I try to make others feel they were inadeqate if they did not copy my set up.There are most likely hundreds of woodmizer failure stories out there ( just using the law of averages based on the amount of sawmills they have sold) But the sawmill was not the reason... If a person is "makin it" in this business, however they are doing it, it will be because of the skill , desire and work that they put in.The mills are just tools, not the Magic bullet. I believe Arkansawyer has , along with an lt40, an edger, a tractor with forks, a dodge truck and gooseneck trailer, and has talked about wanting to dry lumber and get a logosol moulder. At what point is he not making a living with his woodmizer anymore? If he is making it in this business, it is because of him and the type of man he is, not his sawmill choice. 2 weeks ago I sold 300 bft of kiln dry curly cherry for 5 bucks a bft , via the internet to a guy 2 states away. After i sawed that lumber , back in July, i probably did not saw anything else for a week.I made 1500 bucks off the clears, and still have 200 ft of curly commons in my shop. That money goes a long way on our monthly budget, but according to some here, I am not making a living with my swing blade??? I think Rod is doing his homework more than a lot of people who jump into small mills, he just needs to be careful what he listens to. Pick out the negative, chew on " how are ya gonna" questions and good luck to him. One thing though..... I love my Peterson, but 28, 000 bucks for a small mill with no log handling on board is way too much money, in my opinion. If i was going to just stand in front of a mill as my sole enterprise, it would need to have some hydraulics, especially for that money.

Rod · « **Reply #44 on:** November 05, 2003, 08:11:05 AM »

Well maybe Jake was just give a rough guess on the price of the new Peterson.

I don't think there in full production yet

And $28,000 is a lot but were else can you buy a new mill that can cut 650-800bdft per hour that is mobile,and you don't need a ton truck to move it?

And a mill that cut a 4' log

And the new mill does have some hydraulics,or something like that,but nothing for rolling the logs into the mill tho.

I don't think thats going to be a big deal,they could put in with the tractor.

ronwood · « **Reply #45 on:** November 05, 2003, 12:02:38 PM »

Rod,

I bought a 2003 LT40HG25 for $23,500 with a debarker last Feb. It has all the hydralics to load and turn the log. It won't do 500 bd ft. an hour. I saw part time and if can I do 1000 bd ft. of grade lumber in a day thats a lot of work when I am by myself. Pull the mill with a GMC Serria 1/2 ton 4X4 without any problems.

Seems to me your buying a mill for $28,000 that does not have any capability of loading logs easily when your are sawing remotely with no support equipment. My friend has a Lucas and he spends a lot more time setting up a log that I do loading it onto my mill. There are times that that the swing mill works better that my woodmizer especially when I have a 40+ in diameter log to cut. Then it really shines.

Maybe you would be better with a 8" Peterson (non ATS) and investing the difference in a resaw.

Blade cost is a consideration but I don't think ithat is such a big factor.

Good luck on what ever you decide. Each saw has it's pros and cons. You need to decide what works best for you.

ARKANSAWYER · « **Reply #46 on:** November 05, 2003, 04:14:17 PM »

Rod,
You stated that your log size will be 15 to 20 inches. To saw 800 bdft an hour you will have to saw 6 20 inch 8ft logs an hour. How long is it going to take you to stage them 6 logs and get them under your mill? Due to the taper of most hardwoods I would not saw them 18ft long or try to stack them much. I am just asking these logistic questions because I have been around a few mills. Now if you can saw 800 bdft an hour and it takes you an hour to get ready to saw again then that is still 3,200 bdft a day! I know what a man can do in a day and I know pie in the sky when I see it.
I do make my living sawing. So far this year I have sawn 250,000+ bdft. On days when I work on barns and timber frames I saw a 1,000 bdft before I go or after I get home under the lights. I saw in the snow and rain just like today. When I started I had to beg the Banker to loan me the $21 grand for the mill and I just had $300 to buy logs with and pulled the mill around with a '79' Bronco and hauled logs and lumber on an ole 2 axle trailer. Business Plain was simple. Get up in the morning and saw till the sun set. Buy logs and sell lumber and buy more logs sell more lumber. It is hard work and I know why many get tired and go back to work. Like Horselogger I look for ways to improve my setup and add value to what I do so as I make as much or more for the same about of work. It is good to saw 2,000 bdft a day and make $400 but it is even better to saw 1,000 bdft and make $600 and not even double your investment and not any more time.
When you get set up let me know where and I will make a side trip to visit when I go off to deliver some long timbers or such.
ARKANSAWYER

Rod · « **Reply #47 on:** November 05, 2003, 06:09:08 PM »

ARKANSAWYER

What I plan on doing was

Take the forks and load 2, 18 foot logs on the forks

Then place them on the log dogs

go back and get 2 more and place 1 more in the first bottom row

set 2 more 6''x6''x5'blocks with log dogs on top of the bottom row

And place 3 more 18' log on top of the bottom row.

If I have taper I will lift the 6''x6'' block that the logs are resting on with the forks and wedge as needed

How long it will take is,what,maybe a 1/2 hour?

As I cut, the drag back will slide the lumber and 18' ties on to the forks of the tractor that is sitting at the end of the mill.

When all the logs have been sawed I will end up with 6,18' ties and some boards.

The ties I will stack up and cut in half with a chain saw to 9'

Or maybe sale to the ties at 18' if they would want them that way.

So that makes 12 ties 9' when I'm done cutting and a few board that are all edged.

The ties alone would be 567 bdft not counting the boards.

Estimated time is?

I'm hoping for 1-1 1/2 hour

Cost on blade will be $0

As you know this is all in theory

No one has one of the new Petersons as far as I know.

I know there might be a few kincks that might need to be worked out but I'm trying to work them out now.

Thanks for your input on the subjuct.

If everthing works out as planned and I get setup

Sure,come on down and see how the thing works

And anyone else is welcomed also.

I live close to Summersville West Virginia

Not much happens here

But if you injoy hunting or fishing then you might injoy the place ,and just down the road is Whitewater Rafting ,http://www.wvbridgeday.com/whitewater-rafting/

So if your down this way and you get board to could do some rafting

Steve_M · « **Reply #48 on:** November 05, 2003, 06:27:58 PM »

Anybody else notice this about Rod:

1) He is interested in cutting ties.

2) He flies the West Virginia flag.

3) He has some very ambitious expectations.

and

4) His name appears to be Shawn Rodney (judging by his email address)

Does this remind anyone else of a guy named that posted here and on the other forum under the name-----Shawn.

Just wondering

Rod---If I am way off base here and I have offended you I do appoligize. Just having a little fun. I do enjoy the post and the friendly banter.

Steve

Rod · « **Reply #49 on:** November 05, 2003, 06:42:43 PM »

Steve thats probably one of the kids on the computer.

Its had keeping up with them at times

I hope they didn't do anything wrong

Steve_M · « **Reply #50 on:** November 05, 2003, 07:50:16 PM »

Rod,

Nothing wrong that I know of.

I must have added one and one and got three.

I should spend more time on updating my profile instead of disecting someone else's.

Steve

Haytrader · « **Reply #51 on:** November 06, 2003, 03:50:41 AM »

Steve,

Just so ya know. It crossed my mind also.
Guess we were both wrong.
First time this year for me.

HORSELOGGER · « **Reply #52 on:** November 06, 2003, 04:42:55 AM »

The guy you two are thinkin of has changed his name to Dirk and moved to Illinois , and is attempting to corner the lumber market with Wisconsin timber

RevCant · « **Reply #53 on:** November 06, 2003, 05:31:40 AM »

Okay, Rod. Have you ever seen a Peterson work? I live in MD and you are invited to come down and saw with me for a day or two. I've been doing this 9 years, and though I don't have as many bdft as Arky to my credit, I've done a bit of lumber.
You will have blade costs. They will be less than a bandsaw, but you will have to figure it in. If you hit a nail, teeth will have to be replaced. Teeth wear, get chipped, etc. I finally found a decent sawdoctor. I tried putting the teeth back on myself with Peterson's jig. Save the money - find a sawdoctor. Figure on $40-$60 a blade.
Material handling is everything. With the Peterson, you're doing it by hand or auxillary machine. Its slower and harder. The ASM will only pull the cant back to the end of the log. You've still got to do something with it. Forget loading logs from the high side. Set up a log deck and load from the low side.
Nobody is going to produce 800 bdft an hour with one of these mills. Selling ties is living on the bottom of the heap. The market fluctuates was than pork bellies. If you can do it, great.
In my market, I can make far more custom sawing, charging by the hour, than I could wholesaling material. I have a kiln and sell some FAS and Selects to local woodworking shops. Retail is the name of the game. Many a farmer has gone out of business trying to plant more $2 corn.
By the way Arky, I guess I may be as close to a full time swinger as you're likely to find. If you define full time as supporting one's family 75-100% with the sawmill, that would be me right now. And yes, I do miss the hydraulics and the WoodMizer ...

Sven Christiansen · « **Reply #54 on:** November 06, 2003, 05:53:25 AM »

Quote

And yes, I do miss the hydraulics and the WoodMizer ...

I'm sure we can work something out!

ARKANSAWYER · « **Reply #55 on:** November 06, 2003, 06:26:27 AM »

Sometimes I just miss Trapper and have to have a run at these things. I makes me think and ponder the aspects of the business while looking back at the many logs I have skint. Some times to know where you are going you have to take a back azmith reading to see where you are going. It is good to see the new try to show the ole how to do things and the fire in their bellies even if it is just mostly smoke.
Some times us little guys and our small mills putting out 2,000 bdft a day have to remember that there are mills out there putting out 150 to 200mbdft a 8hour shift. I used to run a circle mill and put out more in a day then I do in a month now. We have to raise our heads from time to time and look past the saw head and see where we were just 20 years ago and where we will be at in 20 more. Urban timber and smaller sticks are going to be the real issue and soon like oil we will import more wood fiber then we can produce to fill our needs. These million dollar mills are selling off their timber lands to keep the bankers off their backs and tracks of land are getting smaller and smalller. Can we get loggers to go to a 5 acre hobby horse farm to log one load of 12 inch sticks? I am surrounded by timber but when I leave my hills I see the light at the end of the tunnel and it sounds like the train.
ARKANSAWYER

RevCant · « **Reply #56 on:** November 06, 2003, 07:42:09 AM »

Don't get your hopes up Sven

. I guess that was a "Freudian Slip" or maybe the effects of trying to saw toothpicks the last couple of days. I've come to the conclusion that if you have a constant run of logs under twelve inches, a bandsaw is probably the best option. Fortunately, that is not my average job. My quote should have read "...hydraulics on the WoodMizer." But that's okay. Its raining today, and since I still have another day of toothpicks to saw, I figure I need a day to rest up for it.

This thread leads to a good question. How much do we produce in a given time period, with all the variables included? I'll start a new thread with that question. I don't believe its the machine as much as the person running the machine. The branding issue only means something when you're talking about customer service. Sven, you can smile now - WoodMizer sets the standard there.

Rod · « **Reply #57 on:** November 06, 2003, 09:31:55 AM »

RevCant,no I have not seen a Peterson run and I might have to take you up on thr invite here soon.

I know what you mean by the $2 a bushal corn, its been that price for a long time,but some farmers are still making a living it at those prices.Not the small famer tho.

Have you seen the ASM run?

I think the reason I am asking so many questions is I use to work in the Industrial Engineering deperment and did a lot of time studies and cost cost justification studies.

ARKANSAWYER

were is all this timber land for sale at?

It sure isn't here.

Captain · « **Reply #58 on:** November 06, 2003, 04:53:01 PM »

When running remote with my Peterson, I roll the big logs into my mill with a winch attached to my truck whenever possible. That is, if the logs are staged properly (I require them on skids/skid logs) and there is enough room on site for the truck. Log handling is no more cumbersome than rolling the log to the hydraulic lifts on a bandmill. Plus, we swing bladers don't need to lift the log waist high before cutting it. I find that once my skids are properly placed, repetitive log loading is easy. Because I charge on a BF basis, I have studied the aspects of efficiency and keeping the blade in the log.

When the logs are not staged, I need a piece of equipment anyways (usually my tractor with FEL forks) so loading is not an issue. Certainly this is an additional charge.

By the way, RevCant. Loading on the high track side is now even easier with the slide-up center support leg.

Captain

ARKANSAWYER · « **Reply #59 on:** November 06, 2003, 08:12:51 PM »

There was about 9,000 acres for sell in Tenn for about $600 an acre just in the last paper I got. "Lumbermans" has them in there all the time. Arkansas Game and Fish just bought some old timber land for a WMA off of one of the timber companies.
ARKANSAWYER

J_T · « **Reply #60 on:** November 06, 2003, 08:27:50 PM »

Sat Nov 8 Latham Tn 900 acres at auction some old crypris trees come on down.

Oregon_Sawyer · « **Reply #61 on:** November 06, 2003, 11:39:34 PM »

Arkansawyer: We are such small potatoes compared to the big mills. At the coffee shop this morning someone said that the Hampton mill in town set a new record for the month. 52 million board ft. (That is not a typo)

That does not mean we can't make a good return on our investments. Especially if we stay in nich markets and let the big mills do production.

Loren

C_Miller · « **Reply #62 on:** November 08, 2003, 04:04:22 PM »

Okay, had a long drive today and got to thinkin about tie sawin on the peterson. I'm not sure if it would work but I would buy enough track for a 40'+ run and then set up three stations for sawing ties. with a couple of helpers you could be loading one station, sawing on another and off loading the last. Also from the video it looked like the high side track could be supportted from above, if I was working inside I'd hang the hi-side from the rafters and get clearance on that side. one tow motor and two towheads wood do it I think.
C

Captain · « **Reply #63 on:** November 09, 2003, 03:47:02 AM »

Hey C

That's a neat idea for the high side of the track, I'll have to think about that for my "permanent" set of tracks in the future sawmill shed. I was thinking of setting up a permanent set of low-low tracks, but it really is much easier to keep the guide rail clean when positioned high.

Captain

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #64 on:** November 09, 2003, 05:10:31 AM »

I been doing a lot of thinking about swing blade mills, also.
Concerning your proposal to use 40' track, how are you planning on allowing for the taper from each log, as you saw down the track??? If each log is not near exact as the ones before and after, won't you need to constantly adjust up-down, to get the most from each log???

Captain · « **Reply #65 on:** November 09, 2003, 05:21:19 AM »

Honestly, for taper in softwood, I usually put all of the taper on the top of the log, and cut short boards with it. (usually my softwood is dimensional lumber) In hardwood, I start with the top parallel to the blade and get the best boards, then lower the log somewhere in the pith and low grade so the bottom of the log is parallel with the blade to get the grade out of the botttom. I've been using a handyman jack for this, but on a permanent set, I will have some sort of screw or hydraulic jack for this.

Of course, on logs where taper is minimal, I split the taper top and bottom.

Captain

HORSELOGGER · « **Reply #66 on:** November 09, 2003, 05:34:13 AM »

Harold, in that set up you would work each log start to finish individualy. Unlike the lucas mill , the peterson track is never moved, the mill is riding up and down in a 4 post frame. You probably knew that, but maybe somebody else was trying to picture it. If I was gonna set up permanent, i would by the mill without tracks and with a 3 phase motor. Thw mill can run on simple 3/16 angle iron tracks , with the high rail suspended from the rafters. You would have totally clear access for log loading and sawdust removal, plus make it as long as you had a building for. Would be sweet!

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #67 on:** November 09, 2003, 07:42:59 AM »

I understand how you guys are looking at the taper on the logs and sawing multiple logs. I was wondering about C Miller's outlook for 40' tracks. Guess it would work out the same. A little difficult to picture the sequence between a swinger and a bandmill

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