The Forestry Forum is sponsored in part by:

iDRY Vacuum Kilns


Forestry Forum
Sponsored by:


TimberKing Sawmills



Toll Free 1-800-582-0470

LogRite Tools



Norwood Industries Inc.




Your source for Portable Sawmills, Edgers, Resaws, Sharpeners, Setters, Bandsaw Blades and Sawmill Parts

EZ Boardwalk Sawmills. More Saw For Less Money!

STIHLDealers.com sponsored by Northeast STIHL


Woodland Sawmills

Peterson Swingmills

 KASCO SharpTech WoodMaxx Blades

Turbosawmill

Sawmill Exchange

Michigan Firewood, your BRUTE FORCE Authorized Dealer

FARMA


Baker Products

ECHO-Bearcat

iDRY Wood Lumber Vacuum Drying for everyon

Nyle Kiln Dry Systems




Author Topic: Detroit cold weather starting  (Read 14867 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Bobus2003

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 875
  • Age: 34
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Detroit cold weather starting
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2010, 01:40:02 PM »
Bad things happen to aluminum heads and blocks when using"spit swappers".You can buy a large propane torch and warm up the radiator.The back of the head and the water pump are two good places to hook into with heater hoses and quick connects.You can build your own heater with the propane torch, heater hoses,quick connects and make a copper coil out of some copper pipe.Just hold the torch on the pipe and the anti-freeze will circulate itself.

Wouldn't worry about it unless you drive a Chevy/GMC Duramax.

I like that one JDeere, I might have to try that. Like others have mentioned, I worry about the cold shock from circulating -10 coolant into my operating temp pickup engine. I like the idea of a propane fired circulator too, as far as putting a torch right by the engine, I've heard of machines burned down like that before. Shouldn't have to worry about that with a 353 though, cause thet don't leak any oil :)

Your not transfering very much antifreeze at a time, the amount that comes into the engine starts to warm very fast.. Yeah after a few minutes enough is transfered to make my Ford, go into cold warm up, but it does that on its own if it idles for a few minutes

Offline northwoods1

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 813
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Detroit cold weather starting
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2010, 02:56:01 PM »
 

I don't think it could be much more shock on an engine than the thermostat normally opening and closing ans sending cold fluid back in to the engine. I know with my dodge cummins I can start it, let it sit and idle, and take off down the road , I forget exactly but my thermostat must be about 190 degrees and you have to be pretty far down the road before it opens and then it does it all at once and brings the temp all the way back down that can't be anymore of a shock than connecting to a machine.
I went an looked at an mid 80's iron mule once that I was thinking of buying the guy had it in perfect shape. He made a heater with some black iron pipe and fittings just plumbed it in to the heater hose going to the cab for the cab heater. He put in a section of black iron pipe in an enclosed box in the cab that had a pilot light on it, an actual flame. He had a 100# propane cylinder sitting next to the skidder on the job site to run that pilot light. Machine always stayed warm and cab was even warm when he got to work. The idea of a flame makes me paranoid but it worked flawlessly. I have the pickup to machine hose arrangement it is a real good way to go. I heat the machine up every time below freezing. I never ever use ether period. Batteries last a long time because the machine never has a cold start :) :) :)

Offline barbender

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 6648
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Deer River MN
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Detroit cold weather starting
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2010, 06:58:54 PM »
You're right about the cummins thermostat, northwoods- They definately dump open all at once.I've heard that putting a cummins t-stat in them takes care of that cycling issue. But, like you say, that is probably more of a shock than using quick couplers.
Too many irons in the fire

Offline ga jones

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1072
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Huntington Mills pa
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Detroit cold weather starting
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2010, 07:42:22 PM »
You guys get a little crazy with this.2000.00 heaters ? You could rebuild a 353 for 500. I think I'll stick with my good old reliable (sweet air!) ether...... :D :D
380c timberjack c4 treefarmer international trucks jonsered saws. Sugi hara bars d31 komatsu 350 tj grapple

Offline beenthere

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 26932
  • Location: Southern Wisconsin, USA
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Detroit cold weather starting
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2010, 07:50:47 PM »
If concerned about the shock of the cold water, maybe could ease into letting cold water through using a valve in the connect line. Open slightly for a short while and then let it open all the way.

Gary_C had one of the engine heaters that was on a timer. When he got to the job site, the engine was warm and ready to go.  :)
south central Wisconsin
 It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Offline northwoods1

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 813
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Detroit cold weather starting
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2010, 08:12:12 PM »
You guys get a little crazy with this.2000.00 heaters ? You could rebuild a 353 for 500. I think I'll stick with my good old reliable (sweet air!) ether...... :D :D


a lot of those heaters were designed and made for when a heater is needed and there is no power source. They are 12 volt and just draw a few amps, run on diesel fuel. After it gets so cold and if you don't have some type of supplemental heat ether is of no help. You have to warm the cylinders up. And some types of light truck diesel engines you can't use ether at all. The only option is to heat the block or preheat the intake air. Or don't ever shut the engine off :D

Online Ed_K

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2968
  • Age: 66
  • Location: Leyden,Ma.
  • Gender: Male
  • Leave it better than you found it. Ed_K
    • Share Post
Re: Detroit cold weather starting
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2010, 10:04:53 PM »
My inlet to the skidder goes into the top of the engine where the thermostat is,and come from the heater hose coming out of the cab.The outlet come from the bottom of the skidder radiator and goes back into the heater hose running back the the truck radiator.It does drop the temp in the truck some but i've done it this way on the dodge now and a gmc before with no problems. I also believe in the main power shutoff to save batts.
Ed K

Offline MaineLogger

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 81
  • Age: 46
  • Location: Mid-Coast Maine
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Detroit cold weather starting
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2010, 04:39:34 AM »
I like that one JDeere, I might have to try that. Like others have mentioned, I worry about the cold shock from circulating -10 coolant into my operating temp pickup engine. I like the idea of a propane fired circulator too, as far as putting a torch right by the engine, I've heard of machines burned down like that before. Shouldn't have to worry about that with a 353 though, cause thet don't leak any oil :)
Radiator not engine
380 Timberjack (cable)
230E Timberjack (cable)
648G Grapple
Husky 372's

Offline MaineLogger

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 81
  • Age: 46
  • Location: Mid-Coast Maine
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Detroit cold weather starting
« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2010, 05:06:57 AM »
Bad things happen to aluminum heads and blocks when using"spit swappers".You can buy a large propane torch and warm up the radiator.The back of the head and the water pump are two good places to hook into with heater hoses and quick connects.You can build your own heater with the propane torch, heater hoses,quick connects and make a copper coil out of some copper pipe.Just hold the torch on the pipe and the anti-freeze will circulate itself.
Just putting it out there,pick it apart if you want.Us Maine guys are new to this cold weather logging thing. :D
380 Timberjack (cable)
230E Timberjack (cable)
648G Grapple
Husky 372's

Offline grassfed

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 509
  • Age: 57
  • Location: Brownington VT (10mi.S QUE.)
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Kingdom Hill Farm
Re: Detroit cold weather starting
« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2010, 06:37:12 AM »
I use a small Coleman generator that I leave next to the skidder.

When I come in the morning I start the generator and then sharpen my chainsaws. If it is really cold I will drop a few trees before I start the skidder.

The generator has a small fuel tank like a lawnmower so I can work for about a half hour to 45 minutes or so and then the skidder is nice and warm. If I need to I can hook up a battery charger as well.

This has worked for me to -10-15 much colder than that and I stay home.

One thing to think about when using spit swapping is that your antifreeze is compatible with Detroit Diesel's recommendations. The 53 series engines in particular, because of their wet liners, need the proper antifreeze to avoid corrosion or lime buildup over time.   
Mike

Offline northwoods1

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 813
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Detroit cold weather starting
« Reply #30 on: December 12, 2010, 09:18:37 AM »
I think its funny how you guys call it spit swapping, that reminds me of how a co-worker got *pithed off at me more than once because I wouldn't hook my truck to his machine to start it. I knew all my stuff had perfect clean antifreeze and his skidder didn't..  :D :D

And the heat the radiator up idea...  that reminds me of one time I was staying in my little cabin with no power and no close neighbors, it was a very cold night. Went out to start truck and battery wouldn't turn over. I thought oh no, now I am stranded. No way to jump vehicle, no way to warm things up. Well, I got the bright idea to take the battery out and bring it inside the cabin to warm up, and I thought I would warm the engine up some by draining the antifreeze out of the raidiator and heating it up on the stove, then pouring it back in and trying to start truck. I went through all of that trouble and the moment I poured all the heated antifreeze back in the radiator the thought occurred to me that it was completely pointless because the closed (duh ) thermostat prevented the warmed fluid from getting in the engine anyway!!!  :D :D :D  so NO  :o heating the radiator is not going to help get a machine started or warmed up :D
Luckily the warmed up battery got me out of there.

Offline Gary_C

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 6342
  • Age: 77
  • Location: Blooming Prairie, MN USA
  • Gender: Male
  • Sunrise on the Prairie
    • Share Post
Re: Detroit cold weather starting
« Reply #31 on: December 13, 2010, 12:11:28 AM »
Every winter there are discussions about starting engines in the cold. And every year there are those for swaping anti freeze with a warm engine and those against. Just remember this if you do it, if you have a newer pickup and the dealer spots those hoses, they will void your engine warranty. There have been many an engine ruined by this swaping.  ::)

Most all the newer forestry machines have those preheaters built in to them and I have them in both my harvester and forwarder. They are not cheap, perhaps more than $2000 even, but they are worth every penny of what they cost. They are operated off a 7 day timer and you can preset a time for each day that you will be there to start working. They work right off the diesel fuel in the tank so no other fuel is needed.

The preheater will turn on at the preset time, normally about an hour before you plan to start working, start automatically and pump heated coolant thru the engine block and heater core plus thru a coil in the hydraulic tank. It even starts the fan in the cab. By the time you get there the engine, hydraulic oil, and the cab is toasty warm. You can get in the cab, take off your coat, start the engine, circulate some warm oil thru the hoses and get to work. Saves a lot of warm up time and wear and tear for both the engine and hydraulics.

But even with a preheater to save all that cold oil wear and tear on start up, when it's -10 to -15 it's time to pack it in. With those oil coolers on those machines you have to work that machine hard to keep the oil warm in those temps. It's really tough on hoses and other hydraulic components. And you better have some spare hoses and extra gloves cause if you get hydraulic oil on your gloves, it's like having perpetually wet gloves that don't dry.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Offline northwoods1

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 813
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Detroit cold weather starting
« Reply #32 on: December 13, 2010, 06:26:59 AM »


Every winter there are discussions about starting engines in the cold. And every year there are those for swaping anti freeze with a warm engine and those against. Just remember this if you do it, if you have a newer pickup and the dealer spots those hoses, they will void your engine warranty. There have been many an engine ruined by this swaping.  ::)


Hi Gary, Those fancy heaters do look nice I was wanting to get one for my pickup at one time. They were getting about $600 at that time , but being notoriously cheap like I am I never did try one out.
Like you I don't ask my machines to work when it is to bitterly cold. I did enough of that when I was younger to know that it is smarter to use that time doing something else.

I'd really like to know about the engines being ruined by having hot water couplers on them and using them to warm up other equipment  ???
do you think you could elaborate on that a bit, I am just wondering do you in fact know of specific engines being damaged or is this just one of those, you heard about this or that combined with the fact you have an expensive fancy engine heater setup. I just think it is strange that I have never heard of a single engine being damaged by this, and almost everyone I know does it.

Offline Gary_C

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 6342
  • Age: 77
  • Location: Blooming Prairie, MN USA
  • Gender: Male
  • Sunrise on the Prairie
    • Share Post
Re: Detroit cold weather starting
« Reply #33 on: December 13, 2010, 10:32:24 AM »
I'd really like to know about the engines being ruined by having hot water couplers on them and using them to warm up other equipment  ???
do you think you could elaborate on that a bit, I am just wondering do you in fact know of specific engines being damaged or is this just one of those, you heard about this or that combined with the fact you have an expensive fancy engine heater setup. I just think it is strange that I have never heard of a single engine being damaged by this, and almost everyone I know does it.

I had a set up like that on an older forwarder that I bought and it also had one of those propane fired pre heaters. I talked to the dealer about using those hoses and he advised me not to use them as they had damaged many engines in pickups. Actually it can also be hard on the cast water pumps and seals on your skidder engine. Said if you do and have a newer pickup with a engine warranty to not ever let the pickup dealer see those hoses as they would void your engine warranty.

I also was warned about using them by another logger from Superior, WI who was using them and had trouble with a newer pickup engine. He got into a big fight with the dealer over the warranty and I don't remember the outcome for sure but I think he had to eat the cost of the repair and never went back to that dealer. He also told me to not let the dealer ever see the hose hookup or there could be trouble.

So I think there is little actual talk about the problems as they can be passed off as normal engine trouble. And I certainly do love my preheaters though they have to maintained and can sometimes not start at the worst times. But the benefits of no cold starting on both the engine and hydraulic system are very high. So just passing on good advice that I got, not just because I have "an expensive fancy engine heater setup."  :)
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Offline Burlkraft

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 3840
  • Age: 12
  • Location: Galisteo New Mexico
  • Gender: Male
  • Professional survivor......Still a wooodturner
    • Share Post
Re: Detroit cold weather starting
« Reply #34 on: December 13, 2010, 10:48:19 AM »
Being in the truck business all my life, I have a little experience starting stranded vehicles.

An engine pre-heater is one of the most cost effective add on's you can buy.

Ether is very hard on engines.

Warm oil and fuel can extend a cold weather engine's life significantly.

I believe between down time and the cost of repairs and operator comfort, 2 grand for a heater is money well spent.
Why not just 1 pain free day?

Offline barbender

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 6648
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Deer River MN
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Detroit cold weather starting
« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2010, 02:16:34 PM »
I would agree that athe preheaters are well worth the money on an expensive piece of equipment, but I can't justify a $2000 dollar heater on my $5000 skidder. I have started my machine down to 0F, I have to use ether below freezing. Just a quick little squirt, I don't use much. I'd rather not use it, I'll probably put a block heater on it eventually. My skid steer has a block heater on it, I just drag my generator along andplug it in.
Too many irons in the fire

Offline northwoods1

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 813
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Detroit cold weather starting
« Reply #36 on: December 14, 2010, 06:55:20 AM »

Gary, I have to admit the more I think about it , when it comes to the newer pickups w/so many computer sensors designed to sense everything... I would not be surprised at all that the engines would not know what to do it you had them warmed up and then dumped cold fluid in there... I can really see how it might not be a good idea for some pickups.
I have an old non-computer dodge so that thought never occurred to me. In fact my dodge truck has the same engine as my 170 franklin the 6 cylinder industrial cummins.
I don't know anyone that works in the woods and brings a pickup that has a warranty :D :D that is the truth :)

Offline Skiddah

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 82
    • Share Post
Re: Detroit cold weather starting
« Reply #37 on: December 14, 2010, 08:52:02 AM »
You need to look at the "spit swapping" warranty issue from the side of the dealer.  They're going to try to do everything and anything they can to get out of paying on a warranty.  Right or wrong, that's just business.  Add in a modification that's not designed, sold, or approved by them?  They'd be crazy to honor the warranty.  That would be equivalent to letting people modify the engine any way they wanted, and then have it repaired under warranty when it didn't work.  I don't disagree with a dealership refusing a warranty on "spit swapping."

I know a lot of guys that have warranties on their pickups that they bring to the woods.  I'm one of them, my boss is another, so are 3 other guys we work with.  That's just our outfit.  If you were running an older truck and warranties weren't an issue, by all means try it if you're comfortable with it.  I knew a guy who did it with a forwarder and an old 1986 Chevy ton truck with a gas motor, he told me it was hard on things, but helped out.  I don't get the blistering cold here that a lot of other forum members get thankfully, but I'm not afraid to use ether when necessary.

Offline Randy88

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 889
  • Location: Iowa
    • Share Post
Re: Detroit cold weather starting
« Reply #38 on: December 14, 2010, 09:19:34 AM »
I use the cordless hilton engine heater on my 3-53, its lp gas fired and uses a catalyst to keep it going, you use about 25 amps of electrical power to heat up the catalyst and once its hot that burns the lp gas and keeps it going and it only uses a few milliamps of power to keep the gas valve open and gas flowing, it'll run for about 60 hours on a 20 lb tank of lp and I use two tanks with an automatic tank changer so its good for over 120 hours and don't need to worry about it in case we have delays and can't get back to it to check on it.    New they are about 6-700 bucks and I turn it on just before I shut off the engine and let it charge the battery while it heats up the catalyst and then shut off the engine and the heater is running.    They have timers and things to have them come on hours or days later but I don't need anything else to fix so I don't mess with it.    Theres no open flame so theres no need to worry about a fire and they work slick.     The diesel fired ones take a lot more electrical power to make them work and keep it running, thats why they only recommend them to start up a few hours before you start the machine, not days or a half day before, the battery will most likely be dead by then.    The diesel ones work good but theres a lot more to them to keep running and working like what been stated earlier.   I think the website is www.hiltonheaters.com or something like that.    They are plumbed in like any electric tank heater.   I try to run the heater hoses beside or around the oil pan so that adds some heat to the oil as well, not a lot but some is better than none, in the engine compartment it really helps keep the temp up somewhat.

I also have a giant electric heater on one of my machines, its 220 volt heater and also a 110 volt water circulation pump on it and I hook it up to my welder generator and in about 10 minutes its warm enough to start the engine, works great as well, its something like 6000 watts and I use the circulation pump to keep the water flowing and that way the thermostat doesn't kick it off it just keeps heating, I put a valve in the system and shut it enough so theres a flow restrictor in it so it heats the water to about 120 degrees and it constantly circulates that warm of water and in a short time I'm recirculating warm water through the whole system, works on the same principle as a shared heater hose system but no fluids are exchanged and I can set the flow valve to regulate the temp of water I circulate. open it more and its cooler, close it and its hotter and less flow, I start it up with the valve open and close it as warm water starts coming back through the heater, it sounds complicated but works great and is simple as pie to do if you have a large enough generator if your in a remote location, if I'm around buildings or a 220 power source I leave the valve open and the thermostat controls the heater and it works like any other heater and keeps it a constant temp.    Best of luck

Offline northwoods1

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 813
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Detroit cold weather starting
« Reply #39 on: December 14, 2010, 09:20:40 AM »
Even if I didn't do the hot water swap I wouldn't spend $2000 on an engine preheater. I've seen people make there own like I mentioned in an earlier post. Propane fired , heats the cab and engine, very simple to make and works flawlessly.
I have taken more than 1 truck from brand spanking new to pretty much junk by using it as my work truck in the woods. I don't need to do that anymore. I know my older well maintained vehicle will last most likley outlast me :D in regards to trips to the woods. As you can guess the crew I work with the most all have dodge w/cummins engines and not the new ones. And more than one.. no more new pickups for me ever and proud of it! I can spend all my spare cash on property taxes :D


Share via delicious Share via digg Share via facebook Share via linkedin Share via pinterest Share via reddit Share via stumble Share via tumblr Share via twitter

xx
Cold weather starting

Started by concretecutter on Forestry and Logging

81 Replies
8463 Views
Last post January 23, 2016, 01:53:40 PM
by gspren
xx
cold weather skidder starting

Started by a old timberjack on Forestry and Logging

15 Replies
7093 Views
Last post March 26, 2008, 07:17:01 AM
by a old timberjack
xx
Hard starting in cold weather questions

Started by Jim_Rogers on General Board

99 Replies
8191 Views
Last post February 06, 2014, 12:09:23 PM
by Jim_Rogers
xx
Stihl 660 cold weather kick back when starting

Started by Downstream on Chainsaws

14 Replies
728 Views
Last post January 01, 2019, 02:23:47 PM
by Jack Lilley
 


Powered by EzPortal