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Designing a forwarder [Edit]

Started by Regi, January 17, 2011, 01:10:15 PM

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Regi

2011 - 02 - 16 Changed the name from:

Designing a small-scale forwarder to Designing a forwarder
And added a new post.

Hello All,

My name is Regi and i'm doing a masters degree in product design at UmeƄ Institute of Design in Sweden.
This is my final year and as my degree (thesis) project i have chosen the topic of "small scale machinery for low-impact logging".
And to be more precise i will be trying to desing a small scale forwarder type of vehicle
for private forest owners for a sustainable forest management.

I've just started gathering research material on the topic of forestry and machinery used in the industry.
I'm hoping that here i will be able to get some insights and comments, since you all have more knowledge in the field than i do.
And later on i was hoping to get some feedback/comments on ideas that i will try to develop and share with you.

So far i'm doing this project without a sponsor (basically covering all the financial expenses myself) and without any hidden agendas.

In the end i hope to make a prototype of the machine
(don't know if i'll be able to pull off a full scale model),
but the working prototypes will deffinately be full scale.

So that's a brief introduction of why i'm here and what i want to accomplish.


Here's my plan for the next few months:

- Research small scale forwarders and similar machinery

- Stakeholder interviews/consultations

- Review design challenges and requirements

- Establish a design direction


And my project Goals so far
(i'm sure they'll be changed or the langueage altered a bit, once i familiarise myself with the field a bit more - i've got almost a month to do that):

Design a mechanical tool/machine solution for small scale/gentle
logging to help the private forest owners get the felled trees from the stump
to the roadside landing site with as little damage to the soil as possible (an analog would be a forwarder):

Take into consideration:

- Different terrain types

- Different log size

- Payload handling weight

- Controll

- Safety


If you have some starting comments, questions (about me, my school, the project) feel free to ask.
I'm interested what you think about this topic and yout initial ideas what i should look into - since now i have got a very BASIC understanding of the field (which i hope will improve over the course of several months).
Any question/insights are welcome since i plan to keep this as a work-in-progress thread.

And sorry for any typos or misunderstandings, since English isn't my first language.

Here's a link to some of my previous work:
http://www.behance.net/regis

thecfarm

Regi,welcome to the forum.Sounds good to me,but the money factor comes into real quick.I have a farm tractor to do my skidding.Yes,a small forwarder would be great,as long as I was not paying for it.Just about all you can do with it is really haul logs.I could found more uses for it,like hauling rocks,even firewood for myself,but the cost factor would make it a big no way.You did a good job with English by the way. I would like to see a winch on it too.Would come in handy at times to get that one tree in a bad spot or just so I would not have to knock trees down just to get one.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

snowstorm

take a look at a valmet 646 they were made in the us up until the late "90's" not sure just when they stoped building them here. no computer in it thats nice or at least i havent found one in mine yet. cummins motor power shift trans cranab crane. fairly basic compared to the new ones. would be nice if the crane would swing almost to the front tamden rear wheels. heat ac radio

Rick Alger

Welcome Regi,

Sounds like an interesting project.

I am a horse logger. I do a good bit of low-impact harvesting on my own land and for other landowners. I don't imagine your design will be for horseloggers, but I will share a bit of information anyway in hopes that it will help get things started.

I've been looking into forwarders for quite awhile. The type that interests me the most is made in Sweden, I believe. It is horsedrawn, carries about five tons and has a hydraulic crane. It also  has power assist for hills, powered braking for  descent and an on-board winch. Unfortunately, the cost is way beyond any return I could achieve in my working lifetime.

I cut and skid about four tons a day on average. ( some days way more-some days way less) About half the day is spent cutting, and the other half is skidding. If I could cut the skidding time in half by using a forwarder, I could add 2 tons to my daily output. But since those two tons are worth on average less than $50, There is little incentive to make a large investment.

From my perspective the most important piece of the forwarder is the loader. I can fabricate sleds and log trailers at little cost. But without a loader, there is little advantage. It takes a whole lot of time to load and unload them by yourself.

So the thing that would interest me is an inexpensive loader that would bolt up to home made conveyance.

Buck

Go old school with modern features. Look into the iron mules, sodderhams, hanovers. Keep it simple.
Respect is earned. Honesty is appreciated. Trust is gained. Loyalty is returned.

Live....like someone left the gate open

sprucebunny

Welcome to this forum. Your English is very good !

As others have said, the cost is too high for one landowner. I'm guessing that cutting a square mile of mostly spruce forest would only cover about one tenth of the cost of the machine.

But you may come up with something entirely new or a plan to economically redo an affordable machine.

Here is a BV202 refitted to be useful in the woods.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l95s5zDLbOA&feature=related
MS193, MS192 and an 026  Weeding and Thinning. Gilbert Champion sawmill

barbender

What about a really small one that was based on ATV components? If you could build one that could carry around 2 tons per load, using heavier UTV tires and etc. with a small hydraulic loader. It couldn't cost much more than $20,000 though.
Too many irons in the fire

Rick Alger

Barbender's post reminded me of a fairly unique low impact machine that was built in Vermont in the 70's I believe. It was called the Quadractor. It was made with a non-traditional design, and it was inexpensive and simple to work on. There are a number of sites you can google for more info.

barbender

There was a little rig made in Pengilly, MN, back in the 70's called the Otter, kind of similar to an Argo or Max ATV. If you could do something like that with a small loader, even if you only carried 1/2 cord of wood per load, I think something that low impact would be neat. The problem is I can get a decent cable skidder for $5000, and cut and skid at least 10 cords a day. If it costs 4 times as much for a machine that moves half as much wood on a good day, you can see why nothing like this has caught on in the US. A compact tractor with a small forwarding trailer has merit, at least when you're done forwarding wood you can do a host of other things with it. Something like Regi wants to design could be really slick for a lot of applications, but the problem is holding the production cost down, I think.
Too many irons in the fire

sprucebunny

Here's a link to something i hadn't seen before. The design of the lifting arm is different and it's electric powered.

http://www.wmiatvattachments.com/tjd-x1000-electric-log-loader.html
MS193, MS192 and an 026  Weeding and Thinning. Gilbert Champion sawmill

barbender

Too many irons in the fire

bushmechanic

Hello regi I would love to be able to do what you are embarking on.As already stated by other members here it has to be cheap and simple to use and repair.So many of these projects fail because of over complex systems which in turn drives the cost up and out of reach of any small scale logger.An example of this would be the hydraulics,many would go with an electric over hydraulic system probally with a load sense and expensive piston pump-do you need all those expensive parts?No you do not,expense for nothing,a gear pump and an old fashioned levered control valve will do the same job and it is easier to repair with half the cost.I would suggest to you to talk to mechanics who have been working on forwarders for a while because they usually have a better grasp on what will work and what won't.No offence to engineers but we end up having to fix engineered equipment to make it work!Good luck regi.

fuzzybear

   I like designs that are of a recycled thyme.  Meaning that it is easily built with recycled parts.   No matter where you go in the world there is a dump, a scrap yard, or recycling station.  If It could be based on a small, easily available truck frame, and be built using readily availble parts, I would be all for it.
   Think along the lines of the classic 1940's jeeps. They where the machine that helped win WWII.
    Some of these small 4 cylinder, 4x4 trucks can be made into incredible machines. They have excelent power for low speed applications, with full time 4wd.  Equipped with the correct tires for the terrain and loads, they are a go any where machine.
  They can be equipped with hydraulics very easily. Most can be worked on by your average joe mechanic. The tire inovations over the years has grown.  There are tire for most every type of terrain you will encounter. And most are engineered for minimal ground impact.
   Just an idea that has been rattling around inside my cabin feavered head.
I have to say it again   WINTER go_away go_away go_away
   
I never met a tree I didn't like!!

g_man

Welcome regi. You have chosen an interesting project. I do some small scale logging and try to be low impact as well. I am a land owner and most of my wood which is available for harvest now is low grade. This makes the economics for dedicated woods equipment hard for me. A forwarder would lessen my skid time. Also force me to cut to length in the woods. I'm not sure if that is good or bad. Saving time is good, but for me, my time is cheap.  Your forwarder would have to go on very rough terrain. There is no money for road building. And it would need a loader. You will have to pick your market carefully. I am not sure that I would be included in it.
I know this is not your project but what I would rather see is a very small skidder. Not a toy. Something that could do the work of a 40hp tractor both in and out of the woods so it would be versitle. But built to be low impact and manuverable in the woods. Something that would lessen the limitations I have with my tractor. Namely its ability to handle terrain like  steep, wet, or rocky places. Maybe that can be your next project. Dont call it a skidder though. I have found a lot of people who like the phrase low impact logging dont like the word skidder.

mad murdock

http://www.vimek.se/13/620/  I came across this machine the other day while looking at something else.  It is quite an interesting little piece of engineering.  A cross between ATV and skidder, with a loader to boot.  Looks like it can haul about 1 cord at a whack.
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

barbender

That's exactly what I was thinking of Mad Murdock- I wonder how much it costs though?
Too many irons in the fire

mad murdock

Here is a vid of an earlier version of the machine to watch. It works best if you select 240 resolution.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOPPkzJ0Vks
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

barbender

Cool little machine, that guy looked like he was all thumbs on that loader though ::)
Too many irons in the fire

Ironwood

I love this little unit, thinking about making it into a skidder by making the bed removable and using 2" box tubing Reese style recievers accept a protective plate like on the back of a cable skidder. There is room under the bay behind the crane for a hydraulic winch. 









Not exactly a forwarder, but plenty stable to pull a small log bunk trailer and there is a fairly versitile machine.

Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

Rick Alger

Regi,

Been thinking a bit more about your project.

For my area, northern New England USA, whatever you design would have to be capable of handling 16 foot logs. Also to fit in with the rest of the economics of the area - truck size, truck scheduling, reasonable  monetary return, etc - the device should be capable of landing at least a truck load a week which would be 30- 35 tons.

Regarding terrain, along with steep hills and lots of muck soil, we have the problem of cradle knolls. These are miniature hills and valleys created by decaying root balls of trees that were windthrown centuries ago. They create a lot of stress for anything rigid moving over them. The old-time loggers used to build wood sleds loose to the point of near collapse to compensate for the effects of the knolls.

Hope this helps. Eager to follow your progress.

jim king

I am a beleiver in tracked vehicles for low impact no rut extraction.  Having had good luck with rubber tracked vehicles in soft conditions with the exception of the rubber tracks sustaining damage from small stumps and debris.

I keep thinking about the Ford 8N tractor I have in Wisconsin.  That old design could be improved on a bit starting with low pressure balloon tires on the front and be an excellent small scale low impact economical machine.

It may be as simple as manufacturing the steel tracks for the small Yanmars that seem to be every where as in the photos below.  Working hard the little Yanmars burn 2 gallons of fuel per shift.  Also a photo of the track problem.

I think the market is there.









Ironwood

I would like to drop a 350 JD diesel into my Yanmar (from a JD dozer, 3 cylinder) and drive it hydrostatically. Would be FAST. Simple.

Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

jim king

Ironwood:

How many problems have you had with the rubber tracks ?


Ironwood

Not much, yet. We have lots of rocks in our woodlots, especially on the ridges near me. I have spent some time there, but no issues. I am sure in time, with all the track options there must be one that is "more durable". I see them advertized frequently, and there are more and more excavators, and skid loaders running tracks. 

Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

jim king

Ironwood:

The next time you see a source for tracks can you please send me the link.  I have contacted a couple but as with most companies when they find out I am in SA they stop communicating.
jameskingpe@yahoo.es

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