Wood lot size

[Flyer]

Hi,

I live in Maine and I'm thinking about buying a wood lot to harvest hardwood for use in my outdoor wood furnace.  I burn about 12 cord a season and was wondering how big a lot I might need to purchase to be totally self sufficient for my wood needs and allow enough time between rotation in cuttings for the lot to replenish itself in new growth. 

I'm not sure how many cord on average is harvested per acre or how much time is needed to replenish the acre in new growth.

Any comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks

Flyer

[chucker]

in my area and 20 cord to an average acre of at least 40 year old trees will last a person around 2 years... say your 25 years old and heating only with wood than your going to need about 20 acres for a sustained life span of 80 years!! burning tree wood an salvaging brush bigger then 2.5" to 4" to fill the void of warmer days and not burn heavy wood is a plus... a regeneration of 20 acres and 55 years of heating should replentish close to 25% ? baring that all fairs well with your woods being healthy and no storm damage to wipe out a small forest.  being a wood scrounger will help even more!! this has worked well for my father inlaw...

[KBforester]

Of course it varies on species, age etc... a lot of variables really. But 1/4 cord a year is typical for a lot of Maine. 12 cords would require 48 acres to sustain current stocking. Any folks out there feel free to correct me if I'm off base. That's a lot of land if your buying it just for heat. If you have red maple or oak, you could probably count on sprouts to speed up the replenishment. Try to cut them in the winter.

[CX3]

Go ahead and get 200.  A man needs a place to hunt ;D

[JHBC]

Not being too familiar with hardwood growth rates, this might not help.  But on a lot 319 Hectares (787 acres), 1800 cu meters (505 full cords)of cut could be done annually, with fairly intensive replanting to go along with the natural regrowth.  This would make just under 2/3 cord per acre per year.  This is mostly Hemlock, Doug Fir, Fir, and Alder.  So different wood, different region, but hope it helps.

[Maine372]

depending on the site, growth rates for maine run anywhere from 1/4 cord to a cord per acre per year. most people use 1/3 cd/acre/year for an average. so for 12 cd thats 36 acres. a well executed harvest could boost growth rates, so you could go as small as 25-30ac. if the stand is mixed with  softwood, you would probably want to get closer to 50ac.

[rick f]

depends if you are choosy what you burn, as in all hardwood or mix or mostly softwood. Alot of the boys in Cutler, Maine are burning just Hackmatack ( Tamarack) in there outdoor boilers( they say it lastes longer then dry hardwood).  My say would be a 50 ac. lot should do you just fine.

[clww]

I'm thinking between 50 and 75 acres should be plenty. As others posted, it all depends on the wood on the property.

[Flyer]

Thanks, some really great info here.  I was thinking around 50 ac. but wanted some professional advise.  100ac would be better (for the hunting) as CX3 said, but I think thats getting a little to far outside my price range. 

Thanks again for the input.              Flyer

[WAP Man]

Of course it varies on species, age etc... a lot of variables really. But 1/4 cord a year is typical for a lot of Maine. 12 cords would require 48 acres to sustain current stocking. Any folks out there feel free to correct me if I'm off base. That's a lot of land if your buying it just for heat. If you have red maple or oak, you could probably count on sprouts to speed up the replenishment. Try to cut them in the winter.

For natural stands ...1/4 per acre / year is my rule of them ....1/3 cord per acre /year for softwood 

Silvicultured stands ..depending on the site quality could be double the above .

[rick f]

Flyer, wath part of Maine you in? What type of wood is in your area?

[Flyer]

Rick F,

I'm over in Winterport just south of Bangor.  probably the same types of wood you have on Blueberry Mt. 

I don't mind burning the "garbage" hardwoods (birch, poplar, etc.) in the wood furnace.  It's not too picky.  Just need to keep it burning wood in the hardwood familys.  So probably plan on the 1/4 cord per acre per year rule in my calculations.    Flyer

[thecfarm]

I bought back some of the old farm,7 acres,that borders my land.Has alot of white maple on it.Cross over onto my land and it kinda half soft and half hard.The 7 acres has mostly hard wood on it.Just have to look the land over.Good luck.

[sandhills]

I'm curious, what is woodland worth an acre in your area.  I'm from Nebraska and pretty much all rural land is farm ground or pasture in my area and the prices are getting more rediculous every year.  There was a land auction a few counties southeast of me a while back and a quarter (160 acres) of irrigated farm ground sold for $8100/acre.

[chucker]

 here in north centeral mn. you could pick up close to 10 acres for that price on farm ground...if you dont mind swamp land mixed in maybe even 15!! but for the same ground just across the fence it can cost as much as 4000.00 per acre advertised as non ag....  " forested acreage" !! go figure????

[Norm]

In Iowa it makes a huge difference if it's farmland or timberland. There's so much demand and so little available for sale that prices can go nuts. Earlier this winter a big farm west of me sold for an average of $11,500 an acre for prime farmland.

I can remember a few years ago a neighbor bought some really crappy timberland for $2000 an acre. I thought he was nuts but with prices going where they are who knows.

[John Mc]

The growth rates can vary tremendously by site, even within a local area. If you've got a couple of parcels in mind, you might want to gt a forester or someone to come along with you and assess the site before you purchase. I'd guess with the typical New England site (if there is such a thing) that 50 acres should be plenty.

I live on the edge of the Champlain Valley in Vermont. For my own property, and for some nearby land I own jointly with several others, we use 1/2 cord per acre per year (and we figure that's a conservative number)... but these are probably better than average growing conditions for Vermont.

[Flyer]

Sandhills,

I hear you about land in Nebraska.  We lived in Kansas for a while....it was tough just to find trees out there! And very expensive per acre!  Been looking around a little here in Central Maine and It looks like wood lots are advertised around 1,000 and acre for 40+.  Of course everything is "cheaper by the dozen"  I don't anticipate spending more than 1,000 an acre.

John MC,
Good advice!  I do plan on taking along a certified forester to get some expert advise before I end up laying down hard earned cash.  It would be my luck to end up buying the only "unknown" toxic dump site in the area!!  Or worse, have a couple eagle's nests on the property!!  You just bought yourself a nature preserve!  Just kidding, but I definately will be getting someone who knows more about it than me to make an assesment of any property before I buy.   

[SwampDonkey]

Have no idea of prices in Maine. But, here in NB you have to compete with loggers and small sawmills for any land that comes up for sale. Unless the sellers just out right refuse loggers and sawmills. Crabbe lumber is a big buyer of private land parcels, they are usually 50-100 or 200 acres that they cobble up. I have seen many lots turn industrial freehold over the years with the famous Crabbe orange posts on the corners and newly painted lines. I doubt that you could buy mature timber land for $1000 an acre, they want that for stumpage.

[woodmills1]

I thought it was one cord per 10 acres gives forever firewood


there are good and bad woods but.........

[Flyer]

SwampDonkey,

I know you guys have a more challenging time up in the Maritimes.  I've spent a lot of time up there (Moncton, St. John, Charllottetown PEI, etc.)over the years.......just beautiful!  Always happy to visit! 

I think my figure is in the ballpark for land down here.  I was just looking at a real estate listing for a 100 acre parcel listed for 50K.  Haven't walked the property yet though.....might be a swamp!

[SwampDonkey]

Up here it takes 60 years to get an 8" hard maple (1/16"-1/8" per ring) without proper thinning, just natural growth. An 8" maple is 0.08 cords. Hardwood sites up here run about 26 cord/acre with average 8" trees. That's just from experience cruising local sites. So that means around 325 trees/acre, so we average 0.4 cord/acre/year in growth. These are on the average sites, I wouldn't expect more than 0.7 cord/acre/year on better sites. With proper management, you might reach that 1 cord/acre/year. It would have to be intensive, and cost would go up the larger the woodlot because you want to get all the ground worked over, not just what's close or one corner over there. Thinning one corner and ignoring the rest for years doesn't have the same results. ;)

[SwampDonkey]

Haven't walked the property yet though.....might be a swamp!

I was interested in buying some land one time and advertised in the weekly flyer. A realtor picked up on it and I got a fax at work for every cedar swamp in Carleton Co. :D I had access to photos and GIS and I could see without leaving the building they were all cedar swamp that had been clear cut or too wet to get anywhere near and some places I had to cross someone. :D :D Those realtors only see numbers and never hire anyone to cruise them or find out anything physically about them, other than road side photos. Some are beginning to use the online photos at least. But most wouldn't know cedar from alder from hardwood on those photos unless they were ex foresters, some are actually.

[chucker]

heres an example!!hunting land - $34000 (by Hill City)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 2011-01-22, 1:19PM CST
Reply to: sale-yczud-2174403739@craigslist.org [Errors when replying to ads?]

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39.9 acres of good deer and grouse hunting land for sale. Hundreds of acres of public hunting land near by. Close to good fishing and duck hunting. Boarders a co. rd.


•Location: by Hill City
•it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests
 
 

PostingID: 2174403739

[gunman63]

When considing acreage u need to cut your  own firewood , how more wood  would u have in the tops ,limbs and dead or  dying trees that wouldnt be consider in the growth rate, or in  cords per acre, but u could use for  firewood, just wondering.

[chucker]

When considing acreage u need to cut your  own firewood , how more wood  would u have in the tops ,limbs and dead or  dying trees that wouldnt be consider in the growth rate, or in  cords per acre, but u could use for  firewood, just wondering.

10 % on up depends on the health of the forest overall ... not uncommon to get a cord of burnable brush/wood  from an acre.

[SwampDonkey]

When considing acreage u need to cut your  own firewood , how more wood  would u have in the tops ,limbs and dead or  dying trees that wouldnt be consider in the growth rate, or in  cords per acre, but u could use for  firewood, just wondering.

Maybe as much as 20% or as little as 5%, depends on the size of the tops and health of the woods. Beech for instance, may or may not be any good when half dead from beech scale. You also have to look at the undersized wood not being cut for wood, versus dead standing. Sometimes the dead stuff is more abundant, sometimes the young stuff is. There is a balance somewhere in the middle between the two. I've seen a lot of dead beech that was worthless mush. The Vol. tables only take the tree to a 4" merchantable top. We work on pulp volume here, so it's different than working on saw log volume. There is a lot of wood above them logs that will go into merchantable pulp. I can tell ya there isn't much of anything left behind in a pulpwood harvest. By the time we thin hardwood with brush saws the fine tops left in the harvest is new soil. Only thing left was junk or white birch that forest companies leave to die and fall down in the blocks.

[John Mc]

... 39.9 acres of good deer and grouse hunting land for sale. ...

Of course, grouse tend to like dense saplings... which could mean cut over pretty heavily in the past couple of years...

[SwampDonkey]

Any grouse nests I find are in dense saplings and sometimes in the fall you can't hardly keep the grouse off the roads they are so thick. Not every year though, but if your going to hunt grouse, head to them hardwood cutovers and near to streams. ;D

Here is a nest in harvest brush, striped maple growing up through the brush.

[JHBC]

In the lot I work, we leave 4" to top on the ground, but cut 6"-4" into firewood.  Plus any Alder that's in the way comes out as firewood as well.

A question for Swampdonkey: did you work out this way in the early 90's, if so what part of the coast, and how did you find it.  My dad's a retired forester from about '70 - '01.

The logging industry is a world away from how it was even ten years ago.  But things do seem to be on the upswing.

[SwampDonkey]

A question for Swampdonkey: did you work out this way in the early 90's, if so what part of the coast, and how did you find it.  My dad's a retired forester from about '70 - '01.

Mid 90's I was out there for 3 years. Queen Charlottes, Prince Rupert, Douglas Channel, Nass River, Upper Skeena R. north of Hazelton.

It was a great experience as far as the work, seen lots of different approaches in different areas along the coast and coast mountains. Camp life wasn't all that bad, except the food when in private run camps. The unionized camps were way better. The consulting outfit I was with figured you had to put in 12 hrs for 8 hrs pay, that got old. Wet woods all the time isn't fun. Hills out there are a bit hard on the knees. I returned back east and live happily ever after.  I have relatives out there down around Enderby and Salmon arm into forestry. Dad's got a cousin around his age down there whose husband ran a logging business for 40 years probably. One of her daughter's husbands is a forester.  BC is boom and bust every 3-5 years. When I was out there, there was a big hiring spree in forestry, 3 years later it hit rock bottom. It was also this way 30 years ago when my uncle was out west.

[JHBC]

Hey, thanks for the quick reply. 

North coast rains eh?  That area, Charlottes, Kitimat, Hazelton is very lucky to see blue sky.  I drove log trucks for one season out of Vanderhoof, towards PR in 1991, makes the Island look like a sunny paradise.  I guess camps are the same everywhere, some good some bad.

Good to hear most of the experience was good. And yeah it is hit and miss with the exports, brutal too, because almost every person outside the big cities is connected to the industry.

Thanks again

[logger t]

i live in maine to we have a 25 acre lot and we burn 10 to 14 cords a year we just take out the dieing and the beach we work on  a certian piece every year and and use all off the tree that we cut that helps us with thining or wood lot we log for a living  and us our lot to show to people we are going to cut on.