HELP on ford diesel tractor

[dovetails]

Hi. My tractor just decided it don't want to start anymore! Parked it under the shelter sat,after using it for an hour or so,went to use it tuesday, and it will not start.Turns over good,but will not fire up.Also sounds like it don't have compression it should. I changed the fuel filter,had maybe a teaspoon full of water in it.Bleed the injector lines, getting fuel there ok.        When it's cold out,40's or lower, I just give it a wiff of starting fluid, it'll turn maybe twice and fire up.(saves wear and tear on the starter and battery) If I got a little to much either in it, it would either lock it up, or knock bad for a min,then run fine. Now I can squirt the either to it, and it don't do nothing,no knocking, no lock up, just keeps spinning over like I had not sprayed it at all. It's a 300 ford 3 cylinder. Friend says it has timeing gears, not chain so can't jump timeing,Pulled valve cover everything is moving ok,don't look like a stuck valve or bent pushrod.  You can feel it sucking air into the intake, and blowing out the exhust,so why won't it fire up, or lock up with either????? Battery fully charged, even tryed with jumpers off my truck, no difference  Any ideas??

[red oaks lumber]

not trying for the smart*** award but, is the kill pull pushed in ? if your using that much eather you might have done serious motor damage. you never want to dry sseize your motor.your rings mightr be gone leaving no compression to fire with.

[dovetails]

not trying for the smart*** award but, is the kill pull pushed in ? if your using that much eather you might have done serious motor damage. you never want to dry sseize your motor.your rings mightr be gone leaving no compression to fire with.

Yes, was first thing I checked, have tryed to start it with it out before.Even tryed pushing on the levr itself in case it wasn't moving far enough with the cable. I understand about not using to much either,thats why I just spray a little at the intake when using it. No way it could lose the rings that fast,setting for a couple days after running great a couple days before. Also too much should just make it bind up and not turn over,it keeps turning fine,like it is not getting into the cylinders. If it was a gas engine I would say it was not getting fire to the plugs....

[beenthere]

Do you have a fuel shutoff solenoid on that engine, or is it done with the kill lever?

[dovetails]

Do you have a fuel shutoff solenoid on that engine, or is it done with the kill lever?

cable pulls a lever on the injector pump,stopping the fuel..
in fact the generator don't charge,so after starting I just turn the key off,till next time I start it again,so the battery don't run down.Only thing that uses power is the starter itself.

[iffy]

If you crack one of the fittings where the fuel line attaches to one of the injectors as if you were going to bleed it and then crank it does it squirt any fuel out?

[scsmith42]

The fact that it's not hitting even with ether makes me suspect compression.  However, it would be odd for all cylinders to lose compression at the same time, unless there is a compression release valve that is stuck open, or the timing gear wore to the extent that it jumped time.

[dovetails]

If you crack one of the fittings where the fuel line attaches to one of the injectors as if you were going to bleed it and then crank it does it squirt any fuel out?

Yes, all 3 squirt fuel when I tryed it.

[dovetails]

The fact that it's not hitting even with ether makes me suspect compression.  However, it would be odd for all cylinders to lose compression at the same time, unless there is a compression release valve that is stuck open, or the timing gear wore to the extent that it jumped time.

Even with low compression, wouldn't it fire the ether? Also all the valves seem to be working properly,just a little slack on pushrod when rocker arm is at top,go up and down fine. If out of timming,wouldn't it blow back through the intake,like a gas engine does? No blow back, steady pull into the intake manifold.Also it ran fine the other day,plenty of power,no funny noise ect.  As I said, I parked it and shut it down as I always do,now this problem.    The cable I pull to stop it moves a small lever on the injector pump, that would be a shutoff valve right,stopping the fuel flow,to kill the engine.  Also have tryed1/4 throtle, and full throtle, same results.

[thecfarm]

What do I know. I had a Ford truck with a fiber gear that got chewed up somehow.Something has to give on the front of the motor,I would think.Be it a timing chin or a fiber gear.With the gas motor the cam for the distributor cap was  not turning.But I was going down the road when this happened.

[dovetails]

What do I know. I had a Ford truck with a fiber gear that got chewed up somehow.Something has to give on the front of the motor,I would think.Be it a timing chin or a fiber gear.With the gas motor the cam for the distributor cap was  not turning.But I was going down the road when this happened.

if the gear striped,or a chain broke, the cam does not turn to make the lifters go up and down, mines opening and closing the valves,  also no way all cylinders can have open valves at the same time to lose all compression at once.   (I've had a couple of those plastic timming gears come apart in the past also,replaced with steel gears!)

[snowstorm]

ok how many times did you either lock it????you say it only knocks for a min??too much either bends rods and breaks rings. more often breaks rings. first sign of lock up stop let it sit for at least 5min

[isawlogs]

 
I would guess that the timing is out. You probably have striped a tooth and now it aint where it should be.

[snowstorm]

had a case that the valve keepers came off valve droped into the piston fixed that 2yrs later happened again. pull the valve cover see if a valve is stuck.

[chevytaHOE5674]

Sounds like you may have killed it with either. If you are using enough either to get the motor to lock up or knock you have done damage. You should only be spraying ether while the motor is spinning and only a little shot to get it going (I try not to use it on my ford diesel tractor at all)

Instead of ether use WD-40 from now on. Its less volatile and easier on the motor.

[lumberjack48]

I think its flooded, hold the shout off out on till it starts to fire, than push it in real slow, should take off

Just a thought

[dovetails]

ok how many times did you either lock it????you say it only knocks for a min??too much either bends rods and breaks rings. more often breaks rings. first sign of lock up stop let it sit for at least 5min

ok how many times did you either lock it????----over the 15 years I have been running it, maybe 5 times total,all of them after running out of fuel and getting it restarted again,  if I give it just a bit too much on normal start up, it goes  knock,knock 3-5 times then is running fine, I don't just drownd it in ether every time I start it...  as I said, I've been doing this for 15 years with this tractor,and it gets used all the time, summer and winter. Never sets more than a week at the longest.
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I would guess that the timing is out. You probably have striped a tooth and now it aint where it should be.------Thats the next thing I plan to check, have friend with the book on it,going to give me a hand.He also is trying to borrow a compresion checker to test that also.
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had a case that the valve keepers came off valve droped into the piston fixed that 2yrs later happened again. pull the valve cover see if a valve is stuck----------valve cover is off, all valves look to be working properly,but could be out of timeing I suspose.  in 15 years of hard use, this is the first problem other than water in fuel a couple of times,even then it would try to start with ether. It even got rained on once and was blowing water out the exhust stack when I fired it up.Thats why it goes under the shelter when parked since then. Hope to be checking timming and compresion sat.sometime, will see what that tells me.
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Sounds like you may have killed it with either. If you are using enough either to get the motor to lock up or knock you have done damage. You should only be spraying ether while the motor is spinning ------YES     
and only a little shot to get it going----again YES
When it would not start on it's on, with temp about 70 degrees, then I tryed the ether...no change.
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I think its flooded, hold the shut off out on till it starts to fire, than push it in real slow, should take off

Has set over night, same thing next morning so not flooded   if the shut off is pulled out,it gets no fuel,and can't fire on an empty cylinder.

[lumberjack48]

 T he reason i said this was because it happened to me, i worked on it 4 days and couldn't get it started, than a guy told me to hold the shut off out on till it started blowing white smoke or started to fire, than push it in real slow, it started right up. Its sure worth a try

[snowstorm]

you asked for help i wont sugar coat it. i have been working on this stuff since 1975 even got a degree in diesel tech somewhere. too much either it fires while the piston is coming up sumpin s gotta give. a diesel is compression ingiton it compresses the air in the cyl till it gets so hot it explodes at that time fuel is injected

[chevytaHOE5674]

Get a compression gauge and check compression. These fords do not like ether much at all and are known for holes blowing in pistons when ether is used too much. (Thus why I recommend WD-40.)

In the last 5 years I can only remember using ether on my ford 5000 1 or 2 times. And I too use is all the time.  

[snowstorm]

T he reason i said this was because it happened to me, i worked on it 4 days and couldn't get it started, than a guy told me to hold the shut off out on till it started blowing white smoke or started to fire, than push it in real slow, it started right up. Its sure worth a try
[/quo   te]         to much fuel will wash the cyl down no oil to help seal the rings

[sawman]

  I was running a trencher today, shut it off for dinner, went back to work and same symptoms, would turn over great but no start,  got to watching gauges etc, when i turned the switch on needles would jump but then nothing. jiggled the switch a bit then gauge needles would hold, fired right up. Might check the ignition switch.
 It was a diesel also.

[isawlogs]

Sawman , you probably have an electric shut off , with the switch not working properly , no electricty was going to the shutoff to open it. After fiddling with it , it was able to open and let fuel in and start.

[lumberjack48]

T his is what happened, that's why you want to pull the shut off so it can't get anymore fuel, the pistons are washed clean, theres no compression now.

You can do what you want, i know it worked

[sawman]

  isawlogs,
    you are right , it did have electric shutoff, that slipped my mind when i posted
,

[treedog]

I'd have to try pulling it; 5 mph high gear drop the clutch, if it's air blocked may shake air loose, good luck i feel your pain.

[D._Frederick]

Your injectors may be bad if you have had water in the fuel. Pull one  of the injectors and re connect it to the pipe so that  it discharge were you can see it.

They should produce a fog when you turn the engine over, if they produce a solid stream they are shot.   

[Bandmill Bandit]

Your injectors may be bad if you have had water in the fuel. Pull one  of the injectors and re connect it to the pipe so that  it discharge were you can see it.

They should produce a fog when you turn the engine over, if they produce a solid stream they are shot.   

This is exactly what i was going to suggest. Only thing it would be odd for all 3 injectors to blow load springs at the same time.

[dovetails]

Your injectors may be bad if you have had water in the fuel. Pull one  of the injectors and re connect it to the pipe so that  it discharge were you can see it.

They should produce a fog when you turn the engine over, if they produce a solid stream they are shot.   

This is exactly what i was going to suggest. Only thing it would be odd for all 3 injectors to blow load springs at the same time.

Have to pull them to check compresion anyway,so will check them when I do. I can't see all cylinders rings going out at same time either..As I said,When it didn't fire up is when I used ether on it.    Still waiting on buddy with book to show up and give me a hand with it.  Also, thanks all for the replys,this sure has me stumped,I can make a gas engine run no problem,just don't know enough on the desels. Oh, can't pull it to start, has FEL,and is all the way down.

[Bandmill Bandit]

Just a thought might it could be fuel pressure to the injectors. If there is a bad seal in the pump, fuel pressure at injector may be too low to release fuel properly if at all. That would explain all three cylinders going dead at the same time.

[dovetails]

Just a thought might it could be fuel pressure to the injectors. If there is a bad seal in the pump, fuel pressure at injector may be too low to release fuel properly if at all. That would explain all three cylinders going dead at the same time.

Don't know how much pressure is there,but it squirts out pretty good when I loosen the line from injectors. Still waiting to pull them out and check if they spray or squirt into cylinder.  If I get fuel at the line into injectors,thet "should" mean the pump is working ok wouldn't it?  What gets me the most though is that it don't do nothing when I do give it some ether  should think it would either fire, backfire,lock up or something when sprayed.  Worst case, take it out and rebuild the whole motor,but I really do not think it needs it yet!  No knocks, rattles or bad oil use,maybe a qt a year,so shouldn't be wore out too bad. Thanks for the ideas guys,will check it all and see if I can find out whats up with it.

[isawlogs]

dovetails , that is the reason I think the timing is out .

[Bandmill Bandit]

Either timing or fuel pressure.

I am going out an a bit of a limb here cause i am not sure exact engine so cant look up fuel pressure spec. I think that is a little 3 banger perky built under the ford name from some where around the 70s ish give or take a few years. If so fuel pressure will need to hit about 26000 ish or more?? at injector. (need a the book to check). if the pressure is low it wont fire and if I remember correctly I think it only takes about 3000 to 4000 or so drop to do that. Bad seals in the pump will drop the pressure enough to do that and still spray fuel when you crack em at the injector. if I had a book id have the accurate numbers. You need the shop manual to get the numbers.

Only thing with pump seals gone it is not uncommon for them to wear and eventually do this but you usually notice it is pump seals from running like crap because of  slobbery injectors dumping raw fuel in the cylinders.

Timing really does sound like the most probable issue.

[dovetails]

Timing really does sound like the most probable issue

With out having the book for it, is there an easy way to check the timing without taking the engine apart?  I know on gas, line up timing mark, check where the distributer is pointed at. What do I line up on a desel?  Pull injector to get no 1 piston up?

If the fuel preasure was low, wouldn't it still fire on ether though??

[isawlogs]

  Another cause could be a broke crank, those little Fords did break a few in two.  :-\  I don't recall the way these are set up, so I will advise you to wait for a book or someone with knowledge to open er up.

[Bobus2003]

When your cranking, any smoke?

[dovetails]

When your cranking, any smoke?

not that I've noticed, that mean no fuel getting to cylinders?

[Bandmill Bandit]

Since you have the ID info for the tractor try looking on line for a Shop Service Manual. Not all of them are on the net but there are quite a few that are. You can Dload em for pretty cheap some times free in PDF file.

[isawlogs]

When your cranking, any smoke?

not that I've noticed, that mean no fuel getting to cylinders?

No, it means it aint getting burned.

[isawlogs]

  Bump !

Have you found what the issue is yet  ???

[dovetails]

  Bump !

Have you found what the issue is yet  ???

Not yet!
Seems to be getting fuel ok
Pulled the timming cover,after fighting to get to it with the fel in the way,2 bolts= about 3 hours to get off! Had to crank motor over to get crankshaft bolt out! All the timing marks are dead on, so it did not jump timming. While playing with it, noticed it is getting some drawback on the exhust,like a burned valve,so this morning plan on pulling the head off to check that out. If that looks ok, just a matter of dropping the pan,and pull the pistons out to see if it ate the rings like everyone seems to think it did,cause I use ether on it. I just don't see it lossing all 3 cylinders at once,injectors or rings. (still will not fire or do anything with ether spray either,had to try!) Hope to know more by this afternoon.

[isawlogs]

 
  I have a rad to fix/replace on my Oliver 550, need to take alot off to get to that. You needed to go quite a ways in further, hope you can find whats wrong with it soon so you can start to put her back together.

[dovetails]

Changed the radiator out about 3 years ago, that was easy, just raise the fel all the way up, walk up and unbolt the tin, remove and reinstall.Think it took about an hour all together.  This time I have jack and blocks holding the bucket and arms up high enough to get to front of tractor,but not high enough to avoid hitting my head on it several times!Blocks under trans holding front of tractor up. Main problem is the frame work around front of the tractor being in the way of everything you need to reach,even with the front tires off,pivit bar out,still hard to reach anything on the motor.But I'm getting there,slow but sure.Just hope I find what the problem is.I really don't mind having to put a few $$ into it,as I use it for everything around here. Nothing worse to me than not know what is wrong with it....

[dovetails]

Well, got the head pulled off.The only thing I can see at all wrong with it is a lot of carbon buildup around the recess the valves set into.Tops of pistons also had some, cleanned off easy with just a putty knife,was wet,not hardened.Took the valves out to check seats, one looked like it might have been staying open a hair,another had just a little spot of carbon on one side,the rest looked fine, nice shinny ring around the seat. Went to ford dealer to get gaskets....... no head gasket in stock at ANY of the ford tractor dealers they called!  So I got one comming from ebay, for 1/2 what the dealer said it would cost "if" they had one. So guess I have a few days to get everything else cleaned up while I am waiting.The cylinder walls look perfect,no scratches,or gouges in them anywhere, so the rings should be fine. I'm sure the carbon comes from the motor always running at low rpm,the only time it gets a good workout is when I bush hog the field with it,the rest of the time it's just above an idle usually,moving logs,pushing things moving trailers ect. Think when I get it running again I need to WORK it harder!  Anyway, going to clean it up, put back together and try it. If still no go, guess getting the injectors and pump checked will be next. Unless anyone else has an idea what to look for?

[scsmith42]

If it were me, I'd also check the timing gears.

[snowstorm]

what do the cylinders look like? shiny almost like crome? any ridge? can you see any crosshatch left? try moving the pistons back an forth how much play? if it was mine i would drop the base and pull the pistons you will never be any closer

[Bill]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here - as I really don't know too much - if anything ? - about diesels.

And if this is too is too far out - well please just ignore it.

I have a couple diesels and for the most part they run real good - but they're " new ". I say that 'cause my buddy - the diesel mechanic ( leastways he went to school for 'em some 10-20 years back ) says my diesels are computerized - they've got computers controlling when the fuel gets squirted into the cylinder. He's told me more than once that the older diesels had their fuel timing  ( top of intake and all that ) controlled mechanically - I think he meant by the fuel pump/metering block ??? 

Anyways iffen you have mechanically timed injectors - well that'd be my guess - emphasis on guess  - would be that something there is worn so that fuel is moving - just not at the right time .

Good Luck

[dovetails]

He's told me more than once that the older diesels had their fuel timing  ( top of intake and all that ) controlled mechanically - I think he meant by the fuel pump/metering block   

Anyways iffen you have mechanically timed injectors - well that'd be my guess - emphasis on guess  - would be that something there is worn so that fuel is moving - just not at the right time
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Yup, it is an old school diesel, all ya gotta do is get it to turn over a few times and its
running till you kill the fuel to stop it. Pump is driven off the timming gears.   Thats whats driving me crazy here,everything looks to be fine, timming is dead on, all the marks line up perfectly,valves open and close, pistons go up and down in the cylinders,it has plenty of fuel. It "should" run!

As I said above, I have it half tore down now, and I can not see anything other than some carbon build up in it. I've worked on cars-trucks for over 40 years,never had a gas engine I couldn't make run as long as it would turn over good.Even worked on an old buick straight 8, that pumped so much old thru it when running it looked like it was on fire from behind it, but it still ran! The car had set for over 30 years at the time, the rings were stuck to pistons,so almost no compression,but it did run!

This is my first diesel toy,and it just makes no sence to me why it ran fine one day, parked it, and now won't run at all.    Any way, once I put the head back on, if it don't start, I'll pull the injector pump, and get it checked.But as I said before,it seems to me to be spraying fuel in fine.

[Bill]

I'm just as flummoxed as you.

Been thinking on this a bit and I remember something else my buddy said. I relate to gas engines pretty good so he told me way back when that it is kinda like timing the old style distributors - get the points all adjusted then twist ( turn ) the distributor with a timing light on it to get it right . I seem to recall him saying that some older diesels could be adjusted like that  - a locknut loosened and then the housing turned to " fine " tune the timing - and some even with the motor running ( er - maybe cranking ?  - careful not to burnout the starter ! ) .

Don't have any idea iffen any of this will help - just thought I 'd throw it out in case you hadn't tried it yet.

[isawlogs]

Have you checked the keyway in the timing gears ... Theres gotta be something that gave out ..    :P :P

[dovetails]

Bill, thats one thing I have not checked yet.....  the injector pump is susposed to line up with marks in the back of timing cover houseing,I need to check that. Rainning right now,but will look when it quits. That could be enough to throw off when the injectors get fuel. Thanks!
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Isawlogs..  yes, checked the keys, all in perfect shape.After checking the timing marks,next thing I did was pull gears to check the keystock.Was kind of hoping it was that simple....

[Coon]

I had an old 5.7L GM diesel that did the same thing to me.... We had the engine apart more than once trying to figure out what was wrong, everything just seemed fine..... ended up that the camshaft lobes had worn just slightly enough that the valves weren't opening up and closing off at the right times.  We were at the point of no return when the wear marks were discovered.  After simple change out everything ran perfect again.  

Hope this may be of help.....

[dovetails]

I had an old 5.7L GM diesel that did the same thing to me.... We had the engine apart more than once trying to figure out what was wrong, everything just seemed fine..... ended up that the camshaft lobes had worn just slightly enough that the valves weren't opening up and closing off at the right times.  We were at the point of no return when the wear marks were discovered.  After simple change out everything ran perfect again.  

Hope this may be of help.....

Well, I just checked the timing on the injector pump, and it is dead on 0 where it belongs,so all timing marks are correct.  With the cam wearing down, I would think it would have been showing signs of it for a while before quiting though, like low power,hard starting ect.Also the valves look to be opening all the way,only the one with a lot of carbon around it looked to be maybe not closed all the way.
This one has been starting fine for years up untill the day it just wouldn't start at all.Also it ran smooth, could idle it down till you could almost count the cylinders firing, and just sit there at idle till I jumped back on to move a log or something.... I figure thats where the carbon came from, to much low idle, not enough hard running. Still waiting on the head gasket to try it again.

[pineywoods]

Bad batch of fuel ???

[dovetails]

Bad batch of fuel ???

same fuel it was running on,also drained the tank and put in fresh when I changed the filter.

[snowstorm]

this thing was running fine one day then the next it wouldnt start????????? dose it have a cable type fuel shut off? or a wire electic shut off? did you try pulling an injector hoch it back so you can watch the spray pattern? if its a wet sleeve engine dont spin the eugine over with the head off unless you bolt the liners down they can come up. this 3cyl or 4? spray pattern should be fine mist no squirts no drips. if no fuel at all you got pump problems. check all the injectors and all the lines. your sure the transfer pump is ok?

[routestep]

Are there any fuses in your tractor that might have burnt out? Its the only step I can think over that hasn't been discussed. Don't know why a fuse would be a problem if your getting fuel.

[dovetails]

Are there any fuses in your tractor that might have burnt out? Its the only step I can think over that hasn't been discussed. Don't know why a fuse would be a problem if your getting fuel.

No fuse, the only electric used at all on whole tractor is the starter.

I have gotten it running again finnally.  As I said before, the ONLY thing I have seen that even looked like it could cause a problem, was some carbon build up,with a little around 2 of the valves. The ONLY thing I have really done is take the head off,and clean it up, then put back on,and it will start now,but didn't want to rev up very good.
This is with it just put back together enough to try starting it, as in timing cover is off, no radiator ect. so only ran for like a min or two at a time,so did not get too hot.
If this darn weather will coperate for a day or two, I'll get back on it,and see what happens with radiator back on and water in it so I can run it for a while. I'm thinking it might be something with the injector pump,so will be playing with that next.  "Buddy" finaly found the manual, should have it here today or tommorow, that might help...

[isawlogs]

Glad to hear you have it running again and that we was all wrong  ;)  It may of needed only to dry up to get her going again , in any case happy to hear that it turns .

[Dana]

Did you check the shut down cable and linkage going to the injector pump?

[H60 Hawk Pilot]

I've been down this road.. is their a Rosta Masa type injector pump on this ford engine ?

I have a ford engine in my big forklift with a Rosta-master pump. It's a simple fix (so I been told) when these RS pumps acts up. They bind up inside and can be caused by getting water in the pump. You pull the top cover off and run the pump through by turning the engine over. You advance the pump like your trying to go full throttle.

I can call the diesel mechanic that told me about this RS pump problem. He fixed my big generator with a Herk. eng. and RS pump (shut off bound up) on it.   

[dovetails]

All back together and it's running as good as before now!
The only thing I can figure is I let it idle to much, and the carbon built
up on top of the pistons,blocked a couple of the valves to lower compression
and might have blocked one of the injector tips,limiting the fuel. All I really did
was take it apart, clean it and put it back together again. I will run it harder from now on,to keep it clean inside!  Like running a car down the hwy at 70 to blow it out now and then,when you only take short trips around town with it usually. Thanks for all the ideas though guys,it gave me things to look for and check out

[isawlogs]

I am glad that it was just a pain in the butt to take apart and put back together with only gaskets and seals to buy, a rebuild can get xpensive quick...   

  8)  Keep da rubber to da ground 

[Gary_C]

If you have trouble with this engine again, check the starter. If an older diesel does not turn over fast enough, it will not fire. It needs to build up enough compression and heat in the cylinder to burn the fuel. That's why diesels are called compression ignition engines.

It could also be that you are about due for a valve job, but on a diesel that usually calls for a complete overhaul as low compression has multiple causes.