Might be going back to work with my own company

[Mad Machinist]

 Me and my big mouth may have written a check my body can't cash on this one.

As many here know, we here in AZ have loss nearly a million acres of forest land due the absolutley deplorable conditions of our forests here. One of my buddies works for the USFS and we got to talking about his problem on night over alot of beer. He asked me how these forests could be thinned out with the smallest imapct possible.

The biggest problem here is that these trees are mostly under 12". Alot of these areas are running around 700 trees per acre and they are talking about thinning this forest out to somewhere between 50-100 trees per acre. The environmental groups are having an absolute coronary over the prospect of having large equpment moved in due to the ground pressure and the possibility of large areas being tore up due to careless operation.

So we were talking and I presented him with my idea. Mount a harvester head on a small excavator, much like the gentlemen from NB did. With it's small size and lightweight it could get in and out of sensitive areas with minimal disturbance and still maintain something resembling production in small timber.

Since there are no small forwarders being made, put a set of tracks on one of the larger UTV's to bring the ground pressure under 1 lb per square inch and use a forwarding trailer (under 1.5 lbs per square inch with a full load)  to keep the timber off of the ground to negate the possibilty of the ground being tore up by dragging the logs out.

I realize that he UTV will get the crap beat out of it, but this is something to get in and out of sensitive areas.

My buddy asked me what I would charge for a contract and I told him $250,000 a year not thinking it would go anywhere. Well now I have to get a business plan and equipment qoutes together for him.

[Autocar]

Sounds like to me you may have a long term job  :D But can you make a living  getting $250,000 a year with insurance,fuel ,repairs ? But on the flip side it would be nice to have a long term contract.

[chucker]

  !! to many unanswered questions floating in my head on this one!! trying to put a dollar value on a project like this without knowing how many acres are to be harvested/thinned.... not knowing how many unites of machinery or labor persons to do the job?? it sounds good fot the area that your in by size of the atv/utv forwarders!! enviros will have something to pitch about either way.... you are on to a good idea as for employment of many with manual laborers!!!!!creating manual labor jobs is a worth while endeavor...   best of luck to you!!

[Tom]

You might consider putting some Horse loggers or Mule loggers to work, bringing the logs out on a trailer.  It would serve two purposes.  You would get the logs to the hill without compaction and too much damage; and it would be a difficult presentation for the environmental groups to attack.  Heck, they would probably all be out there wanting to pet the horses. You could build some bleachers on the hill and charge them a dime to watch. :D

That still leaves you with modern equipment to take down the trees and prepare the logs.  It also puts some other companies to work. 

[Mad Machinist]

 The National Forests out here are going to be letting out 2.4 million acres to be thinned over the next 20 years.  During the Wallow fire, crews were removing about 50 tons per acre of fuel wood to save a few towns out here. There are areas that are approaching 100 tons.

The $250,000 dollar amount was just thrown out there because I really didn't believe anything was going to come of it. When the time actually comes to negatiate a contract the amount will be very different.

As far as manual labor, I do not plan on to much of it. Even with all of the slash being chipped, their shouldn't be a whole lot of hand work. At least once I figured out how to keep a chipper behind the excavator/harvester. The tops could then go right from the head to the chipper and be shredded on site for a fast breakdown to eliminate fuel wood for the forest fires. I had a bad experience with a chipper that almost cost me my life, so I REFUSE to let anyone load slash into a chipper by hand. THe bracnh ripped me open from my elbow to my wrist and *DanG near dragged me into the chipper.

I WILL keep the horses in mind. That thought was always in the back of my head. If this contract does go through it will require me to move and since my family loved horses it would be a double bonuses.

As for the enviro's, well, they got a real kick in the cajones over the Wallow and Horseshoe Two fires. Nearly 800,000 acres between the two of them. It is in Congress right now to eliminate National Forest thinning and logging from the whole NEPA process. So they are backing way off on this one.

The ATV/UTV thing may be out as I ran across an old Bombi here with a blown engine. Wonder if I could retrofit a small Perkins diesel?

Alot of the big boys are backing off of this proposal due to having to cleanup the undergrowth and downed trees. Too much time that cuts into the bottom line. And since most of this is small diameter timber (under 12"), production rates fall off. Most of this timber would be going for pulp wood or to the OSB mills and they really aren't paying crap right now. I figure I could turn maybe $350,000 a year by cutting this myself and selling it and maybe another $75,000 by cutting up the downed stuff for firewood. But firewood is such a hassle that I would rather go under contract to clean it up and let the USFS deal with the logistics of selling the pulpwood and the firewood.

The best part of this is that if this is actually managed right, once the whole thing is done, we get to start all over again. The last logging in this forest occured in the late '80's. This area also went through a hard burn in 2002 I think during the Chedeski-Rodeo fire, nearly 470,000 acres.  And here it is burning again less than ten years later.

Lots of work coming across the country, ladies and gentlemen. Make sure you gear up.

[mad murdock]

Welcome to the Forum Mad Machinist.  Sounds like you have the makings of a good deal as long as you can think of all the contingencies you can.  How about combining old and new? a horse powered forwarding trailer? use a small diesel to power the hydraulics on the loader trailer, and maybe even a drive assist to the wheels, and you sit on a "driver" seat which doubles as a loader operater chair, and you can have a good team pull it around?  That would be kind of a cool thing, I think.  As far as a processor goes, the swedes have some really cool small processors that they use in the woods over there, that are really low impact.  Good luck with the process, I hope it pans out well for you, I think that the forest circus could use a healthy round of common sense in proper timberstand management all across the board, not just in AZ!

[Mad Machinist]

mad murdock,

I was raised by my grandparents and taught alot of commen sense. I also grew up along with alot of the Amish in Pennsylvania. What I am trying to get started isn't about money, it is all about people using their heads and commen sense.


For this idea, I am quite willing to walk away from a 6 figure a year salary to get this done. My wife told she she see my eyes literally light up any time I talk about this. I have an absloute and utter hatred and contempt for anything that has gone to the point of going big commercial for the simple fact of all they care about is the bottom line. If you really want to find someone who actually cares about the environment, then go talk to the little guy who depends on his actions to put food on the table for his wife and kids.

I forgot add earlier that this company will be owned by a disabled minority veteran. I am learning to play the system.

On a side note,I really hate trying to type on my new laptop. WAY too sensitive on the keyboard

[mad murdock]

I hear you loud and clear!  The best "environmentalists" IMO are the farmers, foresters, loggers, ranchers, etc. who make a living from the land, and are constantly looking for ways to pass their way of life to the next generation, without having to forfeit it to the gubment through death taxes or some other such scheme to separate the people from the land.  Nothing peeves me more that to see the demise of the family farm all across this great land, and in it's place today we have large "factory" farms, with illegal labor supporting the operation.  (probably said to much already for this open forum, will shut up about that now).  I really like your idea, and sincerley hope that it turns into something good for you, and your family.  It sounds like it could.  good luck with it!!

[Kansas]

Interesting thread. We have a guy that comes over to the mill and cuts firewood on the weekends sometimes. The old fashioned way, with hand saws. He teaches at K State University now, but he talks about his days working at a sawmill down in Arizona/New Mexico area often. He said logging was shut down by a secretary of the interior back when, in the 80's or 90's. Can't remember the name of that secretary now. Sounds like there was quite the sawmill industry back in the day. What kind of species are the trees you will be cutting? Seems like there were some hardwoods down there somewhere.

[snowstorm]

there was a article in timberharvesting mag. a while back.around lake tahoe. the contractor was running a valmet harvester and fowarder along with a chipper on one fowarder. he was paid a rate per acre plus the wood to thin. used gps to keep track of the acres thinned. it also said that he may be cutting on several different landowners in one day. it sounded like if you owned land there you had to be in the program. i have been to tahoe and saw all the signs saying you must mantain defenceable space around your house. if you dont the fire dept wont put the fire out they move on to the next  place that played by the rules.                                                                                    

[snowstorm]

you dont need an old bombi or a horse or mule....or a 100 of them. a cut to lenght harvester and fowarder. 12" wood is not a prob. if the brush needs to come out then cut the logs out load on the tops. low ground psi no skid trees

[Rocky_Ranger]

This is an interesting thread, and what it will take to come up with ideas to thin this 30,000 acres per year for the first contract (10 years).  I certainly won't "pooh-pooh" anybody's ideas as to how to approach this potential - Lord knows nobody has a hold on the answer to date......  Good luck with it Mad Machinist, and if I can help with info,  give me a call (send me a message for my number) at the A-S, or call the timber shop at the SO.

[Mad Machinist]

  The Bombi would be used to tow a small trailer with a loader on it. The plan is to keep the equipment small enough that it could be towed behind a F-550.

All of what would be cleared is ponderosa pine. To give an idea of what our forests here look like, check this out. This was a pilot project done several years ago.

http://fourforestrestorationinitiative.org/photos_video/4FRIposter.pdf

I was planning on shredding the slash where it was produced to help stabalize the soil until grass can start growing. Trying to come up with a way to do it productively is the thing.

Rocky_Ranger,

I will get ahold of you. I may need all the help I can get on this. And it's 50,000 acres a year now for the next 20 years.  With the possibility of more depending on the quality of work being done.  Going to take quite a few companies to cut 50,000 acres a year.

[Mad Machinist]

 If I remember right, there was a BIG sawmill industry here back in the day. From what I was told there were dozens of mills and crews working this forest. There are so many logging roads through this forest from those days that I don't think anyone could travel them all.

[barbender]

I think with the volume you are talking about you are going to need some bigger equipment- a small processor and forwarder team. They are very low impact, and were designed for thinning softwood. I have seen Bombi- forwarder set ups on the web, and they look slick enough. But I don't think I'd want something cobbled up to work with day in day out.

[Bobus2003]

The small Harvesters on the small excavator is a sweet setup.. I have a Link Belt 1600 With Patu 410SH head, About 20K lbs, Can be moved on a F350 or F450 and 20K GN trailer with ease.. Works really well in the 12" timber you have.. I'm running mine in P-pine and it works really well even into the bigger trees.. just gotta watch for larger branches as they are hell on the heads.

A machine like this from Timber Pro would work well for what your saying As i heard they are being offered with a harvester head, followed by a Forwarder:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cJSTkRb--0&feature=related

[wesdor]

Back in 1970 I had the good fortune to visit Charles Walters of Olla, Louisiana.  He was (in my opinion) a mechanical genius with little formal education beyond high school.  He was kind enough to get out his old 8mm movies and show me the evolution of mechanical harvesting on the Weyerhaueser Plantations in northern Louisiana.  Mr Walters was one of the forces behind this movement in the 50's and the first attempts were primitive at best. 
By 1970 they had developed a practice which seemed to work well for them and may be something that would be adaptable to your situation in Arizona.

This is all from memory 40 years ago so I hope I don't get any of the details too wrong.  Let's start with a forest that is over stocked.  I think you said 700 trees per acre.  They go in with a small harvesting machine which is much like a huge industrial combine.  Small trees are cut, de-limbed and put into a storage container attached to the machine.  When the container is full, they wood is banded together and dropped off. 

About 7 years later they come in with a larger machine and take out more of the trees.  Ultimately, you are left with a mature growth forest which is then clear cut.  They then seed the area by air and the process begin again.

As I said, this is all from 1970 so things may have changed, but it sounds somewhat similar to what you are trying to accomplish in Arizona. 

I like your goal of using everything possible and taking care of the earth. 

[HuZzEy]

if the bombi don't work out maybe a small tractor with Mattracks there saying 1.5psi with a 50hp tractor my snowmobile club had a set on a kubota m90 to pull the drag worked awsome and it was still the same width as the tires were

[sjfarkas]

Any thought to just mulching/masticating it all?  These are the types of projects I love.  Good luck to you.  Let us know how it goes. 

[Mad Machinist]

 I am now more confused that ever. Spent half the day on the phone with the AZ Dept. of Commerce and nobody can tell what licenses I need to operate or even if I need any licenses in the state of AZ to do this. They have a whole program dedicated to tax breaks under a Healthy Forest Initiative but other than that nobody knows anything else. And the website doesn't help much.

Will try agian on Thursday.

The Kubota on Matttracks sounds interesting.

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

First off welcome to The Forum Mad Machinist  ;) ;D 8) 8) I think this project is going to be an interesting one to follow  ;) they really need to restart the whole industry in that area from the sounds of it  ;)

Just going by the pictures in the flier they are going to a pretty wide spacing and if you are required to remove or chip everything from the trees that are cut Id go for a Feller Buncher followed up by a Grapple Skidder Then do your Processing ,sort and grading on the landing tops and anything that dose not make a sawlog/post log goes through a chipper and sold either garden mulch or fuel/wood pellet stock  ;) thats just My two bobs worth though Mate

Either way it looks to me that the volume per Ha and the piece count is going to be huge any way you look at it  ;)

Regards Chris

[Mad Machinist]

 Yea there are alot of trees to remove. To my understanding they are going to 20 to 50 trees per acre from 300 to 700 per acre. I think is a little too much right off the bat, but that is me. I think the Forest Service here should leave 100 to 150 per acre and come back in five years to see how things are doing. Then they can make a decision on whether to remove the mature trees or the junveniles that are left.

Research has shown me that a Ponderosa Pine will live about 125  years before succumbing to something, whether rot, weather, or whatever. If some of the mature trees happened to get beaten up, then the area will look less than appealing.

Based on an 8 inch average diameter and an average of 450 trees removed per acre, there about an average of around 350 lbs total weigh for the entire tree, there should be around an average of 75 tons per acre of just standing biomass to be removed. Now according to reports during the Wallow fire, there was nearly 50 tons per acre of dead biomass and undergrowth being removed per acre. Add that to the previous 75 tons, and being conservative that would eqaul at least a 100 ton average. At my last check, biomass was $25 per ton, so this would equal about $2500 tons per acre of just biomass for a boiler somewhere. No timber value or post value was included in this.

The main problem is that there is absolutely no infrastructure left here in AZ thanks to the various environmenal groups here in the states. The one sawmill left in the area up there, now deals with recycling, so you can probably guess what happened to the equipment that was once there. And unless the chips for a biomas boiler or OSB plant go out by rail, (and as far as I know, there is no facilities here for this), all this gets either gets chipped for mulch or left to rot. This is a crying sham because if this is managed right, alot of people could go back to work for a long time.\

Unfortunately, here in the states, the environemntal groups will lie, cheat, and steal to get what they want. They have been told for years what would happen and they didn't believe us and now nearly a million acres across AZ have burnt. So my question to them is, is how do you like your precious spotted owl now, roasted, blackened, or smoked?

[Bobus2003]

Yea there are alot of trees to remove. To my understanding they are going to 20 to 50 trees per acre from 300 to 700 per acre. I think is a little too much right off the bat, but that is me. I think the Forest Service here should leave 100 to 150 per acre and come back in five years to see how things are doing. Then they can make a decision on whether to remove the mature trees or the junveniles that are left.

USFS went in and did a Cut by my Parents Place where they went from a 30'-50' spacing to a 120'-140' spacing.. First good wind storm 50% of the remaining trees fell, and since with the wet winter and spring more have been falling down.. Went from being something great too look at to an ugly mess. It has almost become a 700 acre man-made meadow

[Ianab]

USFS went in and did a Cut by my Parents Place where they went from a 30'-50' spacing to a 120'-140' spacing.. First good wind storm 50% of the remaining trees fell, and since with the wet winter and spring more have been falling down.. Went from being something great too look at to an ugly mess. It has almost become a 700 acre man-made meadow

For sure.

If you are thinning like that you need to do it early, before the trees get tall and spindly.  Suddenly taking an overgrown stand back to mature spacing is just asking for all sorts of problems with the next big windstorm. The area needs thinning, but it probably need to be done in stages to be successful.

Of course that complicates the job.

Ian

[Mad Machinist]

 I had the priveledge of talking to Rocky_Ranger today. He is a forester here in the National Forest. He gave me a general rundown of the general requirements as far as equipment limitations. I CAN use a grapple skidder and CAN skid tree length. I just need to run chains to protect the tires due to rocky terrain. I never liked chains because of the damage they can do with a stupid operator, but tires ain't cheap. I guess I know what I am running. My brother is a better harvester operator than I am anyhow.

And there is alot more infrastructure here thatn I previously thought. There are sawmills and quite a few pellet mills for fuel. and the biggest one is a biomass power plant. So All I can say is game on ladies and gentlemen.

I can get into this dirt cheap and drive the guys working for me into the ground to make a buck, but I remember what it was like to be a feller and I really couldn't do that to anybody working for me. I am still going to go highly mechanized. I just can't purposely put people in the line of fire to make a buck.

I have contacted some banks and venture capital companies for funding to buy new equipment, so I am waiting for a response there. Considering the current economy, I think I have a better chance of hearing back from the venture capital companies.

Research has shown me that I should be better of going in as a subcontracter to the bigger companies bidding on this. I made a mistake in thinking none of the big boys would come in on this proposal due to minimal timber value. Little did I know that some of the big boys shifted to a biomass mentality. THAT won't happen again.

Starting a business is alot harder that I remember. So much red tape that I wonder why I am putting myself throught this grief. I ned some help and advice on how to make this profitable and still make sure my employees are safe and well paid.